4 ms·

This is addressed to the copious negative top-level comments. As someone with first-hand experience attending a computer summer camp, I think this is important

by nmrm 13y ago

This is addressed to the copious negative top-level comments. As someone with first-hand experience attending a computer summer camp, I think this is important. I attended a computer summer camp as a kid. It was all male and had an very awful culture (e.g. lunch conversations were pretty pubescent and gaming was really important). The culture seriously turned me off, to the point that I stopped programming entirely and got into math for a while afterwards. Oh, and I'm male... If a girl joined any random summer camp 12 years ago, she would be the only girl in the group. This may have changed since then, but I'm sure not by much. Sense of belonging and community is important, and it's not unreasonable to suspect that a male-dominated summer camp would not provide a girl with that sense of community. Especially at that age. A more ideal solution might be increasing the number of girls interested in computer science so that this simply is not a problem. Unfortunately, it's unrealistic to assume that will happen over night. In the mean time, camps such as this might decrease the social barriers to entry for girls interested in CS. That's a Good Thing.

level 13y ago
I absolutely agree with this. I talked with a major contributor to http://www.blackgirlscode.com/ http://www.blackgirlscode.com/ and he helped me understand that it's not about keeping men back or fighting sexism with sexism, it's about providing opportunities where people thought they previously didn't exist. STEM and the computer industry are heavily dominated by men (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7523172 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7523172), and the role models to introduce women into these fields just aren't there (although it is getting better). Programs like this are there to show that an industry isn't specifically for only men or women, and allow girls to make the choice to code, even if they previously hadn't thought of it as an option.
computer 13y ago
I have experience with summer camps for Mathematics (as a participant) for kids from 10-18. I'm not sure how they manage to achieve it, but it was probably 55%/45% male/female. I think that half the camp elders being female helped a lot, as well as wise promotion and word of mouth after 20 successful years. I feel that the camps being mixed added a ton to the experience. I can't begin to describe all the benefits, but for me as a boy, the camps first showed me that both genders can be interested in nerdy stuff, and that such interests are actually fine and quite normal. However, if it would have been 95% boys, I think it would have been better to split them by gender. Especially among children it's hard to be the only girl in a group of only boys. Then, once the girl group starts to grow by intelligent promotion and word of mouth, perhaps you can merge the camps once the split is more favorable.
- nmrm 13y ago
  Thanks for sharing! I never had the opportunity to attend such a camp, and I'm glad to hear mathematics camps are well balanced. I agree that the merging strategy makes a lot sense, esp. for the reasons you give in the second paragraph. Hopefully the critical mass of girls interested in CS will exist soon.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
yypark 13y ago
The copious comments stem from the negativity toward men - male culture and gaming is seen as a bad thing and toxic, but female groups. Why are predominately or all male groups not celebrated for bringing community to young boys?
facepalm 13y ago
Too bad we don't know anything about the culture of an all girls summercamp. I'm sure it would be all love and unicorns. Perhaps there can be different sorts of summer camps? Some boys might like gaming and actually go through puberty. Other boys might be into other things. Why shouldn't they all have a perfect summer camp? Likewise for girls...
- jfarmer 13y ago
  Yes! Everyone should have the opportunity to learn in an environment where they feel empowered and understood. How does this project do anything except further the goal? The GP's comment was not saying that an all-girls camp would be sunshine and unicorns. It was saying that one particular environment made them feel small and disempowered as a girl and that an experience like Girls Who Code would appeal to them for that reason.
  - facepalm 13y ago
    But the unspoken claim is that all events with a lot of men are unbearable for women (and decent people). Sure if some girl wants to go to girls only camp, whatever. Although it seems a bit unfair that the same wouldn't be granted for boys. I'm waiting how this plays out in 10 years. Either it'll fail because a majority of women simply don't want to code. Or there will be women-only companies desperate to hire men. There would be a slight difference in the women only companies likely having started out as women only deliberately, so I think working as the only man for an all women company might be even more unattractive than the opposite thing.
    - nmrm 13y ago
      The 20th century is replete with examples of women entering traditionally male professional roles. None of these industries is hostile toward men; in fact, often the opposite. The scenario you suggest as plausible is in fact quite unprecedented. What makes Computer Science so different from all these other fields and professions?
      - 13y ago

by nmrm 13y ago

level 13y ago

I absolutely agree with this. I talked with a major contributor to http://www.blackgirlscode.com/ http://www.blackgirlscode.com/ and he helped me understand that it's not about keeping men back or fighting sexism with sexism, it's about providing opportunities where people thought they previously didn't exist. STEM and the computer industry are heavily dominated by men (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7523172 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7523172), and the role models to introduce women into these fields just aren't there (although it is getting better). Programs like this are there to show that an industry isn't specifically for only men or women, and allow girls to make the choice to code, even if they previously hadn't thought of it as an option.

computer 13y ago

I have experience with summer camps for Mathematics (as a participant) for kids from 10-18. I'm not sure how they manage to achieve it, but it was probably 55%/45% male/female. I think that half the camp elders being female helped a lot, as well as wise promotion and word of mouth after 20 successful years. I feel that the camps being mixed added a ton to the experience. I can't begin to describe all the benefits, but for me as a boy, the camps first showed me that both genders can be interested in nerdy stuff, and that such interests are actually fine and quite normal. However, if it would have been 95% boys, I think it would have been better to split them by gender. Especially among children it's hard to be the only girl in a group of only boys. Then, once the girl group starts to grow by intelligent promotion and word of mouth, perhaps you can merge the camps once the split is more favorable.

nmrm 13y ago
Thanks for sharing! I never had the opportunity to attend such a camp, and I'm glad to hear mathematics camps are well balanced. I agree that the merging strategy makes a lot sense, esp. for the reasons you give in the second paragraph. Hopefully the critical mass of girls interested in CS will exist soon.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

yypark 13y ago

The copious comments stem from the negativity toward men - male culture and gaming is seen as a bad thing and toxic, but female groups. Why are predominately or all male groups not celebrated for bringing community to young boys?

facepalm 13y ago

Too bad we don't know anything about the culture of an all girls summercamp. I'm sure it would be all love and unicorns. Perhaps there can be different sorts of summer camps? Some boys might like gaming and actually go through puberty. Other boys might be into other things. Why shouldn't they all have a perfect summer camp? Likewise for girls...

jfarmer 13y ago
Yes! Everyone should have the opportunity to learn in an environment where they feel empowered and understood. How does this project do anything except further the goal? The GP's comment was not saying that an all-girls camp would be sunshine and unicorns. It was saying that one particular environment made them feel small and disempowered as a girl and that an experience like Girls Who Code would appeal to them for that reason.
- facepalm 13y ago
  But the unspoken claim is that all events with a lot of men are unbearable for women (and decent people). Sure if some girl wants to go to girls only camp, whatever. Although it seems a bit unfair that the same wouldn't be granted for boys. I'm waiting how this plays out in 10 years. Either it'll fail because a majority of women simply don't want to code. Or there will be women-only companies desperate to hire men. There would be a slight difference in the women only companies likely having started out as women only deliberately, so I think working as the only man for an all women company might be even more unattractive than the opposite thing.
  - nmrm 13y ago
    The 20th century is replete with examples of women entering traditionally male professional roles. None of these industries is hostile toward men; in fact, often the opposite. The scenario you suggest as plausible is in fact quite unprecedented. What makes Computer Science so different from all these other fields and professions?
    - 13y ago