3 ms·

Do I need to explain what's wrong with this idea? Imagine that I started a program called "Rails boys summer of code". The alternative is obvious -- have quali

by lutusp 13y ago

Do I need to explain what's wrong with this idea? Imagine that I started a program called "Rails boys summer of code". The alternative is obvious -- have qualified girls apply to an appropriately named rails summer of code, and if they're rejected based on their gender, take the responsible parties to court. This is how gender equality comes into being -- not by creating a set-aside program conspicuous only for its overt sexism. The underlying message of this program is that as programmers, girls are different than boys. This is both false and absurd -- mathematics, logic and computer science have no gender.

bighi 13y ago
I wish there were more people like you in the world. Fighting sexism with more sexism is not the answer.
not_paul_graham 13y ago
I didn't have access to a (personal) computer till a few years before starting college. I'm currently using a 3 year old machine, granted it's still pretty fast for my needs, but if I saw a program that was only for girls, and there weren't any alternative for boys (at the age group this is targeted at) I would have been quite disappointed. I don't bear any ill-will towards this program, but I feel that kids are mostly prejudice free, and this makes them see some form of gender discrimination. What is next, you'll ask for funding for programs targeted at girls that are only hispanic or indian or black?
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  What is next, you'll ask for funding for programs targeted at girls that are only hispanic or indian or black? Already exists: http://www.blackgirlscode.com/ http://www.blackgirlscode.com/ As a disclaimer, I have no opinion on them as I am not really informed about their activities.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > What is next, you'll ask for funding for programs targeted at girls that are only hispanic or indian or black? How on earth did you draw this conclusion from a post in which I make exactly the opposite point? My point was that programs that single out groups, that sequester, are counterproductive. Read it again. On re-reading your post, I now think you attached it to the wrong comment. That's the only rational explanation.
natasham25 13y ago
I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her. This is from experience. I'm a woman who codes, and I mostly go to the women who code meetups because I can learn in a safe space that I personally enjoy. The first time I went to a normal Rails meetup - with majority guys - there were two guys having a pissing contest about whether ERB is better than HAML, and then another guy was apologizing to me for the two guys being "so technical". In meetups where there are only women, we get to actually learn and support each other, and it's great. I want the same environment for my sister to learn in.
- 10098 13y ago
  > I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her. Well, wouldn't having 15-16 year old girls around be distracting and counterproductive for boys? Also, how do those poor kids manage to learn anything in schools? It must be super difficult for them, having all those other kids of the opposite gender around. Maybe we should bring back the whole separate schools for boys and girls thing.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her. All completely reasonable points, and your choices also seem reasonable. But let me ask when, if ever, your sister will be able to leave that sequestered environment and enter the real world. Isn't it our goal to take down these barriers and achieve gender equality? Gender equality doesn't mean two colonies, one of men and another of women. It means one society composed of men and women. Or am I wrong about that? > I mostly go to the women who code meetups because I can learn in a safe space that I personally enjoy. Yes, understood. That's why men go to meetings where only men are present -- same reasoning, same outcome. > In meetups where there are only women, we get to actually learn and support each other, and it's great. I want the same environment for my sister to learn in. I know a secret that I'm going to reveal to you -- that works for men too. But it has the unfortunate side effect of making men intolerant of the presence of women. Do you want that outcome for women? I ask this in all sincerity, without judgment or rancor -- do you want a society in which men and women pay attention only to their own instincts and needs, and make no effort to construct a society composed of both men and women?
lomegor 13y ago
> The underlying message of this program is that as programmers, girls are different than boys. This is both false and absurd -- mathematics, logic and computer science have no gender. No, the underlying message is that society treats women and men differently, and thus comparisons like what you just did (changing "girls" for "boys") do not work. You may not believe that, but that's another problem. If I create a program to help poor people become programmers, am I really saying that rich people are different than poor people? And do you think I can use "low income" and "high income" interchangeably on those programs?

by lutusp 13y ago

bighi 13y ago

I wish there were more people like you in the world. Fighting sexism with more sexism is not the answer.

not_paul_graham 13y ago

I didn't have access to a (personal) computer till a few years before starting college. I'm currently using a 3 year old machine, granted it's still pretty fast for my needs, but if I saw a program that was only for girls, and there weren't any alternative for boys (at the age group this is targeted at) I would have been quite disappointed. I don't bear any ill-will towards this program, but I feel that kids are mostly prejudice free, and this makes them see some form of gender discrimination. What is next, you'll ask for funding for programs targeted at girls that are only hispanic or indian or black?

vezzy-fnord 13y ago
What is next, you'll ask for funding for programs targeted at girls that are only hispanic or indian or black? Already exists: http://www.blackgirlscode.com/ http://www.blackgirlscode.com/ As a disclaimer, I have no opinion on them as I am not really informed about their activities.
lutusp 13y ago
> What is next, you'll ask for funding for programs targeted at girls that are only hispanic or indian or black? How on earth did you draw this conclusion from a post in which I make exactly the opposite point? My point was that programs that single out groups, that sequester, are counterproductive. Read it again. On re-reading your post, I now think you attached it to the wrong comment. That's the only rational explanation.

natasham25 13y ago

I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her. This is from experience. I'm a woman who codes, and I mostly go to the women who code meetups because I can learn in a safe space that I personally enjoy. The first time I went to a normal Rails meetup - with majority guys - there were two guys having a pissing contest about whether ERB is better than HAML, and then another guy was apologizing to me for the two guys being "so technical". In meetups where there are only women, we get to actually learn and support each other, and it's great. I want the same environment for my sister to learn in.

10098 13y ago
> I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her. Well, wouldn't having 15-16 year old girls around be distracting and counterproductive for boys? Also, how do those poor kids manage to learn anything in schools? It must be super difficult for them, having all those other kids of the opposite gender around. Maybe we should bring back the whole separate schools for boys and girls thing.
lutusp 13y ago
> I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her. All completely reasonable points, and your choices also seem reasonable. But let me ask when, if ever, your sister will be able to leave that sequestered environment and enter the real world. Isn't it our goal to take down these barriers and achieve gender equality? Gender equality doesn't mean two colonies, one of men and another of women. It means one society composed of men and women. Or am I wrong about that? > I mostly go to the women who code meetups because I can learn in a safe space that I personally enjoy. Yes, understood. That's why men go to meetings where only men are present -- same reasoning, same outcome. > In meetups where there are only women, we get to actually learn and support each other, and it's great. I want the same environment for my sister to learn in. I know a secret that I'm going to reveal to you -- that works for men too. But it has the unfortunate side effect of making men intolerant of the presence of women. Do you want that outcome for women? I ask this in all sincerity, without judgment or rancor -- do you want a society in which men and women pay attention only to their own instincts and needs, and make no effort to construct a society composed of both men and women?

lomegor 13y ago

> The underlying message of this program is that as programmers, girls are different than boys. This is both false and absurd -- mathematics, logic and computer science have no gender. No, the underlying message is that society treats women and men differently, and thus comparisons like what you just did (changing "girls" for "boys") do not work. You may not believe that, but that's another problem. If I create a program to help poor people become programmers, am I really saying that rich people are different than poor people? And do you think I can use "low income" and "high income" interchangeably on those programs?