4 ms·

I don't understand the point of this article. Isn't this widely known by ... everyone?

by paul_f 13y ago

ForHackernews 13y ago
538 doesn't do articles with "points". They're trying to be a new form of journalism that "just gives you the data, and lets you make up your own mind." In practice, this means a lot of context-free presentations of obvious or apparently irrelevant data.
- GeneralMayhem 13y ago
  That's incredibly dangerous. There is no such thing as an unbiased fact - by choosing what data to present and how to present it, they've already taken significant steps to influence how you make up your mind. Having a point of view is inevitable, but telling people you don't is insidious.
  - speeder 13y ago
    This remembers me of Brazil murder statistics, they released two documents, one with general murders, and one with domestic murder, but that second has only data about women murdered, also some data across the two reports are presented in ways to imply that women are more common victims of domestic murders, and indeed various women rights groups cite that report. But if you take both reports, cross reference the data, and use maths to find hidden data, you find out that men are more murdered at home than women.
    - hga 13y ago
      Does that latter fact perhaps reflect the Willie Sutton principle, per Wikipedia: "Sutton is known, albeit apocryphally, for the urban legend that he said that he robbed banks 'because that's where the money is.'" I.e. is one reason they being killed at home is because that's one place murderers will easily find them, plus with Brazil's gun control regime I'd assume they're almost as vulnerable there as on the streets. But bravo on digging deep into the statistics!
  - mildtrepidation 13y ago
    There is no such thing as an unbiased fact... This is incorrect. Facts do not have bias by definition; only the presentation of a fact can show bias. If you're showing all of the data you have objectively, you're at least limiting the bias you introduce to what was present in the collection method. It's difficult if not impossible to completely remove bias from the entire process from experiment design to execution to reporting, but that does not mean that bias is somehow intrinsic in data. Having a point of view is also not the same as making a biased presentation. Stating your point of view (if you have one on the data you're working with, which also is not absolutely guaranteed) is a great way to establish credibility, but the presence of an opinion does not guarantee the presence of bias in presented results. Telling people you don't have an opinion when you do? Yes, that's lying. So obviously it's not a good thing, particularly in this context. But you're making assumptions here that don't really fly.
- peterwwillis 13y ago
  It's a wonderful model for leading people to erroneous conclusions. Just pick the data that supports your point of view or omit data that would disprove it. "According to opinion polls, 75% of the nation thinks Jesus Christ was a dinosaur." Not mentioning that the poll asked people if they thought Jesus was either a dinosaur or a cheese sandwich, or the other poll numbers that show 82% of people believe Jesus was more likely a mammal.
eplanit 13y ago
I don't understand why the focus is so selective in terms of industry or career. Why not worry about the lack of gender diversity in other professions such as nursing or construction?
- jleyank 13y ago
  Perhaps because neither of these professions (a) pay well or (b) are being hailed as the saviours of the 21st century? Still, 538 should gather and publish the corresponding data to provide the basis for discussion. From my fortunately limited experience in medical facilities, nurses sit close to the top of the not-a-doctor hierarchy. I have seen a number of male nurses, most of whom are used when brawn is required. I suspect we see a fallout of parenthood, possibly $$. Those who can (either gender), proceed to the MD/DO/DDS (or now whatever super-nurses are called, PA's?). Those who can't, for cost or time constraints, make it to nurse and do ok. Although the hours suck. In previous generations, nursing was a non-degreed (diploma) profession. It shifted to BA/BS-required in the 70's and 80's and for all I know is one where MA/MS is preferred for continued employment. Can one get a PhD in nursing, as I can imagine what the research might look like?
  - jonwachob91 13y ago
    >> Can one get a PhD in nursing, as I can imagine what the research might look like? Yes. In a clinical setting they perform a lot of the same tasks that M.D.'s perform. There is actually a "great debate" of sorts going on clinical settings if Nurse Ph.Ds should be called Dr.s http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/health/policy/02docs.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/health/policy/02docs.html?...
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > In previous generations, nursing was a non-degreed (diploma) profession. It shifted to BA/BS-required in the 70's and 80's AFAIK, LPN/LVN programs generally do not require any degree, and at least some RN programs do not require a bachelor's degree (though the RN does require at least an associate's degree.)
- 13y ago
jonwachob91 13y ago
Yes, but I think that's misunderstood. Mona and Nate were simply writing an article to educated the populace that NY is not an outlier in women in tech. In face, they specifically use the term "Gender Balance". No facts were brought up about communities trying hard to teach more women in tech (such as Rails Girls) or any mention of inequality. I'd also be willing to lay out a prediction that communities with lower than 50k computer jobs have 85%+ men. SF, NY, Boston, and other tech hubs are attractive areas for women to work.

I don't understand the point of this article. Isn't this widely known by ... everyone?

by paul_f 13y ago

I don't understand the point of this article. Isn't this widely known by ... everyone?

538 doesn't do articles with "points". They're trying to be a new form of journalism that "just gives you the data, and lets you make up your own mind." In practice, this means a lot of context-free presentations of obvious or apparently irrelevant data.

GeneralMayhem 13y ago
That's incredibly dangerous. There is no such thing as an unbiased fact - by choosing what data to present and how to present it, they've already taken significant steps to influence how you make up your mind. Having a point of view is inevitable, but telling people you don't is insidious.
- speeder 13y ago
  This remembers me of Brazil murder statistics, they released two documents, one with general murders, and one with domestic murder, but that second has only data about women murdered, also some data across the two reports are presented in ways to imply that women are more common victims of domestic murders, and indeed various women rights groups cite that report. But if you take both reports, cross reference the data, and use maths to find hidden data, you find out that men are more murdered at home than women.
  - hga 13y ago
    Does that latter fact perhaps reflect the Willie Sutton principle, per Wikipedia: "Sutton is known, albeit apocryphally, for the urban legend that he said that he robbed banks 'because that's where the money is.'" I.e. is one reason they being killed at home is because that's one place murderers will easily find them, plus with Brazil's gun control regime I'd assume they're almost as vulnerable there as on the streets. But bravo on digging deep into the statistics!
- mildtrepidation 13y ago
  There is no such thing as an unbiased fact... This is incorrect. Facts do not have bias by definition; only the presentation of a fact can show bias. If you're showing all of the data you have objectively, you're at least limiting the bias you introduce to what was present in the collection method. It's difficult if not impossible to completely remove bias from the entire process from experiment design to execution to reporting, but that does not mean that bias is somehow intrinsic in data. Having a point of view is also not the same as making a biased presentation. Stating your point of view (if you have one on the data you're working with, which also is not absolutely guaranteed) is a great way to establish credibility, but the presence of an opinion does not guarantee the presence of bias in presented results. Telling people you don't have an opinion when you do? Yes, that's lying. So obviously it's not a good thing, particularly in this context. But you're making assumptions here that don't really fly.
peterwwillis 13y ago
It's a wonderful model for leading people to erroneous conclusions. Just pick the data that supports your point of view or omit data that would disprove it. "According to opinion polls, 75% of the nation thinks Jesus Christ was a dinosaur." Not mentioning that the poll asked people if they thought Jesus was either a dinosaur or a cheese sandwich, or the other poll numbers that show 82% of people believe Jesus was more likely a mammal.

eplanit 13y ago

I don't understand why the focus is so selective in terms of industry or career. Why not worry about the lack of gender diversity in other professions such as nursing or construction?

jleyank 13y ago
Perhaps because neither of these professions (a) pay well or (b) are being hailed as the saviours of the 21st century? Still, 538 should gather and publish the corresponding data to provide the basis for discussion. From my fortunately limited experience in medical facilities, nurses sit close to the top of the not-a-doctor hierarchy. I have seen a number of male nurses, most of whom are used when brawn is required. I suspect we see a fallout of parenthood, possibly $$. Those who can (either gender), proceed to the MD/DO/DDS (or now whatever super-nurses are called, PA's?). Those who can't, for cost or time constraints, make it to nurse and do ok. Although the hours suck. In previous generations, nursing was a non-degreed (diploma) profession. It shifted to BA/BS-required in the 70's and 80's and for all I know is one where MA/MS is preferred for continued employment. Can one get a PhD in nursing, as I can imagine what the research might look like?
- jonwachob91 13y ago
  >> Can one get a PhD in nursing, as I can imagine what the research might look like? Yes. In a clinical setting they perform a lot of the same tasks that M.D.'s perform. There is actually a "great debate" of sorts going on clinical settings if Nurse Ph.Ds should be called Dr.s http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/health/policy/02docs.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/health/policy/02docs.html?...
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > In previous generations, nursing was a non-degreed (diploma) profession. It shifted to BA/BS-required in the 70's and 80's AFAIK, LPN/LVN programs generally do not require any degree, and at least some RN programs do not require a bachelor's degree (though the RN does require at least an associate's degree.)
13y ago

jonwachob91 13y ago

Yes, but I think that's misunderstood. Mona and Nate were simply writing an article to educated the populace that NY is not an outlier in women in tech. In face, they specifically use the term "Gender Balance". No facts were brought up about communities trying hard to teach more women in tech (such as Rails Girls) or any mention of inequality. I'd also be willing to lay out a prediction that communities with lower than 50k computer jobs have 85%+ men. SF, NY, Boston, and other tech hubs are attractive areas for women to work.