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Thank you, I didn't know you could prove that! I believe my disagreement was specifically about this (quoted): > In principle a computer can correctly recogni

by a1a 13y ago

Thank you, I didn't know you could prove that! I believe my disagreement was specifically about this (quoted): > In principle a computer can correctly recognize 2 apples as > being 2 apples without knowing anything about addition and > without being able to recognize 1 apple. I have a hard time seeing this. If I am not mistaken again, there is no definition of the symbol 2 that does not include addition. The proof above doesn't really prove this either as Peano's axiom rely on the definition of "successor". Successor definition: "a+1 is the successor of a". http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PeanosAxioms.html http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PeanosAxioms.html http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Successor.html http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Successor.html

pavelrub 13y ago
See the edit in my reply to tomp. In the Peano axioms, 2 is defined as S(S(0)), not as S(0)+1. The correct way to think about this is to ignore any inclination to give those symbols any "real world" meaning. From the point of view of the formal system - they are just strings, and the only thing we know about them is how to manipulate them to form other strings. Under this perspective, the connection between S(S(0)) and S(0)+1, or in general between S(a) and a+1, is again something which requires proof: S(a) = S(a+0) = a + S(0). A computer can be given an explicit map between the symbols S(0), S(S(0)), s(S(S(0))), ... and 1,2,3..., so to identify S(S(S(S(S(S(0)))))) with 6 - it wouldn't need to know anything at all about + or about 1. Edit: also consider the following quote from Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations and whether the person described needs to have any concept of 'addition' in order to correctly use numbers: "Now think of the following use of language: I send someone shopping. I give him a slip marked 'five red apples'. He takes the slip to the shopkeeper, who opens the drawer marked 'apples', then he looks up the word 'red' in a table and finds a colour sample opposite it; then he says the series of cardinal numbers--I assume that he knows them by heart--up to the word 'five' and for each number he takes an apple of the same colour as the sample out of the drawer.--It is in this and simlar ways that one operates with words--"But how does he know where and how he is to look up the word 'red' and what he is to do with the word 'five'?" ---Well, I assume that he 'acts' as I have described. Explanations come to an end somewhere.--But what is the meaning of the word 'five'? --No such thing was in question here, only how the word 'five' is used."
- a1a 13y ago
  This is quite beyond my knowledge, I like the Wittgenstein philosophy, but I would still argue: You cannot calculate S^(x+1)(0) before the result of S^x(0) is known. To calculate S^6(0) you start by calculating S(0) ----> It's not possible to "identify S^6(0) with 6" if you haven't calculated S(0) first, because you cannot know S^6(0) at this point.
  - pavelrub 13y ago
    The computer has a table in memory that tells it S^6(0) = 6 (or equivalently O O O O O O = 6 apples). When it sees a symbol - for example S^6(0) - it searches this table for the same symbol, and then outputs the corresponding number. In no stage of this process does the computer "calculate" anything - it doesn't even need to know that S^5(0)=5 in order to find that S^6(0)=6. In fact S^5 might not even be in the table.

by a1a 13y ago

pavelrub 13y ago

See the edit in my reply to tomp. In the Peano axioms, 2 is defined as S(S(0)), not as S(0)+1. The correct way to think about this is to ignore any inclination to give those symbols any "real world" meaning. From the point of view of the formal system - they are just strings, and the only thing we know about them is how to manipulate them to form other strings. Under this perspective, the connection between S(S(0)) and S(0)+1, or in general between S(a) and a+1, is again something which requires proof: S(a) = S(a+0) = a + S(0). A computer can be given an explicit map between the symbols S(0), S(S(0)), s(S(S(0))), ... and 1,2,3..., so to identify S(S(S(S(S(S(0)))))) with 6 - it wouldn't need to know anything at all about + or about 1. Edit: also consider the following quote from Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations and whether the person described needs to have any concept of 'addition' in order to correctly use numbers: "Now think of the following use of language: I send someone shopping. I give him a slip marked 'five red apples'. He takes the slip to the shopkeeper, who opens the drawer marked 'apples', then he looks up the word 'red' in a table and finds a colour sample opposite it; then he says the series of cardinal numbers--I assume that he knows them by heart--up to the word 'five' and for each number he takes an apple of the same colour as the sample out of the drawer.--It is in this and simlar ways that one operates with words--"But how does he know where and how he is to look up the word 'red' and what he is to do with the word 'five'?" ---Well, I assume that he 'acts' as I have described. Explanations come to an end somewhere.--But what is the meaning of the word 'five'? --No such thing was in question here, only how the word 'five' is used."

a1a 13y ago
This is quite beyond my knowledge, I like the Wittgenstein philosophy, but I would still argue: You cannot calculate S^(x+1)(0) before the result of S^x(0) is known. To calculate S^6(0) you start by calculating S(0) ----> It's not possible to "identify S^6(0) with 6" if you haven't calculated S(0) first, because you cannot know S^6(0) at this point.
- pavelrub 13y ago
  The computer has a table in memory that tells it S^6(0) = 6 (or equivalently O O O O O O = 6 apples). When it sees a symbol - for example S^6(0) - it searches this table for the same symbol, and then outputs the corresponding number. In no stage of this process does the computer "calculate" anything - it doesn't even need to know that S^5(0)=5 in order to find that S^6(0)=6. In fact S^5 might not even be in the table.