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> I've never understood the stigma associated with all mind-altering drugs ... One objection that comes immediately to mind is that it may divert from a search

by lutusp 13y ago

> I've never understood the stigma associated with all mind-altering drugs ... One objection that comes immediately to mind is that it may divert from a search for the actual cause of depression. Remember that this treatment, like all depression treatments, is symptomatic. It doesn't either identify or treat the underlying condition, only its symptoms.

TillE 13y ago
Drug-induced euphoria and depression are not mutually exclusive feelings. Ask any depressed person who's taken psychoactive drugs. If ketamine functions as an antidepressant, that's a distinct and unusual effect.
- abruzzi 13y ago
  Very true. Some hallucinogenic can significantly intensify depression.
dragonwriter 13y ago
> One objection that comes immediately to mind is that it may divert from a search for the actual cause of depression. That's an insane objection, because understanding of how different depressions (depression isn't one thing, its just a set of symptoms) respond to different treatments is one method of determining the causes. Linking observed symptoms to environmental factors (both those that precede the symptoms, those that occur with the symptoms, and those that cause changes to the symptoms) is a fairly essential part of the normal scientific method of determining the mechanism behind the symptoms. That it also helps people in the here and now is a not insignificant side benefit, of course.
- lutusp 13y ago
  >> One objection that comes immediately to mind is that it may divert from a search for the actual cause of depression. > That's an insane objection ... Actually, it's called "science". Science isn't about descriptions, it's about explanations. If we knew why ketamine worked, we would have finally crossed the threshold of science. Without science, we will continue to see one "breakthrough" after another, each lasting a few months, to eventually be discarded as its questionable statistical basis comes to light. > Linking observed symptoms to environmental factors (both those that precede the symptoms, those that occur with the symptoms, and those that cause changes to the symptoms) is a fairly essential part of the normal scientific method of determining the mechanism behind the symptoms. That can only be a preliminary to science. Science is not about "links", it is about testable, falsifiable explanations for those links. Without an effort to explain "links", any correlation becomes science. But that's not how science works. > That it also helps people in the here and now is a not insignificant side benefit, of course. But that has no value at all, in fact it's an obstacle to understanding. And it explains the many drugs presently available that are either known to be ineffective or that have adverse effects -- all of them gained a foothold by a study like this one, a questionable study, over-reliant on self-reporting.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    >>> One objection that comes immediately to mind is that it may divert from a search for the actual cause of depression. >> That's an insane objection ... > Actually, it's called "science". No, actually, its an objection to a necessary step of science, on the supposed basis that it prevents science. Which is what makes it insane.
  - nanidin 13y ago
    So... Uhhh... Why does gravity work? I know we can describe it, but is it considered science yet?
    - lutusp 13y ago
      > So... Uhhh... Why does gravity work? I know we can describe it, but is it considered science yet? Bad example. General relativity describes gravity in great depth, and made a number of testable predictions, all of which have been proven in experiments many years after the original predictions. So yes, modern physics is not only a science, but it's the science to which other sciences are unfavorably compared. Also, an explanation, a scientific theory, as useful as it is, doesn't say "why" something is so -- that's for philosophers.
      - nanidin 13y ago
        > Actually, it's called "science". Science isn't about descriptions, it's about explanations. If we knew why ketamine worked, we would have finally crossed the threshold of science. But you said that if we knew why it worked, it would have become science. You also said that it's about explanations, not about descriptions. General relativity may describe gravity, but it doesn't explain it. According to your previous post, this excludes gravity from science. I was just pointing out the flaw in your reasoning. Consider this a final response - I see you will keep any argument going for the sake of arguing throughout this post. It's clear you have some sort of agenda or preconceived notion to defend, and I'll leave you to that.
        lutusp 13y ago
jes5199 13y ago
Yeah, but that's true of Prozac, as well. It turns out that depressed people are definitionally ineffective at finding the root causes of their problems, and if you cam artificially suspend the feedback loop, then they might have a chance to diagnose and fix the underlying problem. And then of course for some people, the underlying causes are already gone and the depression is just a standing wave of feedback, and temporarily inhibiting the cycle is enough to cause it to stop.

by lutusp 13y ago

TillE 13y ago

Drug-induced euphoria and depression are not mutually exclusive feelings. Ask any depressed person who's taken psychoactive drugs. If ketamine functions as an antidepressant, that's a distinct and unusual effect.

abruzzi 13y ago
Very true. Some hallucinogenic can significantly intensify depression.

dragonwriter 13y ago

> One objection that comes immediately to mind is that it may divert from a search for the actual cause of depression. That's an insane objection, because understanding of how different depressions (depression isn't one thing, its just a set of symptoms) respond to different treatments is one method of determining the causes. Linking observed symptoms to environmental factors (both those that precede the symptoms, those that occur with the symptoms, and those that cause changes to the symptoms) is a fairly essential part of the normal scientific method of determining the mechanism behind the symptoms. That it also helps people in the here and now is a not insignificant side benefit, of course.

lutusp 13y ago
>> One objection that comes immediately to mind is that it may divert from a search for the actual cause of depression. > That's an insane objection ... Actually, it's called "science". Science isn't about descriptions, it's about explanations. If we knew why ketamine worked, we would have finally crossed the threshold of science. Without science, we will continue to see one "breakthrough" after another, each lasting a few months, to eventually be discarded as its questionable statistical basis comes to light. > Linking observed symptoms to environmental factors (both those that precede the symptoms, those that occur with the symptoms, and those that cause changes to the symptoms) is a fairly essential part of the normal scientific method of determining the mechanism behind the symptoms. That can only be a preliminary to science. Science is not about "links", it is about testable, falsifiable explanations for those links. Without an effort to explain "links", any correlation becomes science. But that's not how science works. > That it also helps people in the here and now is a not insignificant side benefit, of course. But that has no value at all, in fact it's an obstacle to understanding. And it explains the many drugs presently available that are either known to be ineffective or that have adverse effects -- all of them gained a foothold by a study like this one, a questionable study, over-reliant on self-reporting.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  >>> One objection that comes immediately to mind is that it may divert from a search for the actual cause of depression. >> That's an insane objection ... > Actually, it's called "science". No, actually, its an objection to a necessary step of science, on the supposed basis that it prevents science. Which is what makes it insane.
- nanidin 13y ago
  So... Uhhh... Why does gravity work? I know we can describe it, but is it considered science yet?
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > So... Uhhh... Why does gravity work? I know we can describe it, but is it considered science yet? Bad example. General relativity describes gravity in great depth, and made a number of testable predictions, all of which have been proven in experiments many years after the original predictions. So yes, modern physics is not only a science, but it's the science to which other sciences are unfavorably compared. Also, an explanation, a scientific theory, as useful as it is, doesn't say "why" something is so -- that's for philosophers.
    - nanidin 13y ago
      > Actually, it's called "science". Science isn't about descriptions, it's about explanations. If we knew why ketamine worked, we would have finally crossed the threshold of science. But you said that if we knew why it worked, it would have become science. You also said that it's about explanations, not about descriptions. General relativity may describe gravity, but it doesn't explain it. According to your previous post, this excludes gravity from science. I was just pointing out the flaw in your reasoning. Consider this a final response - I see you will keep any argument going for the sake of arguing throughout this post. It's clear you have some sort of agenda or preconceived notion to defend, and I'll leave you to that.
      - lutusp 13y ago

jes5199 13y ago

Yeah, but that's true of Prozac, as well. It turns out that depressed people are definitionally ineffective at finding the root causes of their problems, and if you cam artificially suspend the feedback loop, then they might have a chance to diagnose and fix the underlying problem. And then of course for some people, the underlying causes are already gone and the depression is just a standing wave of feedback, and temporarily inhibiting the cycle is enough to cause it to stop.