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This is a stressful topic that gets overwhelming quickly. Things are shifting but it's a slow shift and one that is going to be extremely painful before it gets

This is a stressful topic that gets overwhelming quickly. Things are shifting but it's a slow shift and one that is going to be extremely painful before it gets better. Some interesting work going on with worker coops, parecon, post-scarcity economics, etc... As one of the linked comments noted "Looks like we've built higher-phase communism accidentally. Ooops." The Keynes article he briefly touches on is fantastic http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/keynes/1930/our-grandchildren.htm http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/keynes/1... "Yet there is no country and no people, I think, who can look forward to the age of leisure and of abundance without a dread. For we have been trained too long to strive and not to enjoy. It is a fearful problem for the ordinary person, with no special talents, to occupy himself, especially if he no longer has roots in the soil or in custom or in the beloved conventions of a traditional society. To judge from the behaviour and the achievements of the wealthy classes to-day in any quarter of the world, the outlook is very depressing! For these are, so to speak, our advance guard – those who are spying out the promised land for the rest of us and pitching their camp there. For they have most of them failed disastrously, so it seems to me – those who have an independent income but no associations or duties or ties – to solve the problem which has been set them. I feel sure that with a little more experience we shall use the new-found bounty of nature quite differently from the way in which the rich use it to-day, and will map out for ourselves a plan of life quite otherwise than theirs. For many ages to come the old Adam will be so strong in us that everybody will need to do some work if he is to be contented. We shall do more things for ourselves than is usual with the rich to-day, only too glad to have small duties and tasks and routines. But beyond this, we shall endeavour to spread the bread thin on the butter – to make what work there is still to be done to be as widely shared as possible. Three-hour shifts or a fifteen-hour week may put off the problem for a great while. For three hours a day is quite enough to satisfy the old Adam in most of us! "

harshreality 13y ago
Not needing everyone to work doesn't necessarily mean we're post-scarcity, which means someone has to decide how to allocate scarce resources, in coordination with the people or companies that run and maintain the mostly-automated systems, and that's where the extreme pain shows up.
gregpilling 13y ago
While having a beer last week with some friends, the topic turned to the old question "What would you do if you suddenly had $20 million dollars handed to you?". This is an old question of course, on HN it would be called F U money, but it had been asked that day by a customer of my friend Kevin. Kevin makes jewelry tools. His immediate response was "I could buy more tools and machines!", which was my basic response also. I have a nice new CNC lathe on my list next, a mere $100,000. I think it is funny, that given enough money not to work our (Kevin, me) first reaction is to think of the things we could buy that would let us do more work. For the most part I enjoy my work, and I would get more enjoyment with fancy new equipment. "who can look forward to the age of leisure and of abundance without a dread" does not seem true in this case. YMMV of course. Given FU money, I would probably not work 40 hours a week, every week. It would be more like 10 hours one week and 80 another. When I am in the passion of a new idea, the time flies by and 80 hours feels like nothing. Anyone who has worked all night on a project and then seen the sun rise knows what I mean. I find those times some of the most enjoyable in my life. I think humans like to do things. Make games, write software, build sandcastles, etc. Removing the need for work would not remove the work. The work would just be what we found to be entertaining to ourselves, instead of a job to eat.
- acomar 13y ago
  > I think humans like to do things. Make games, write software, build sandcastles, etc. Removing the need for work would not remove the work. The work would just be what we found to be entertaining to ourselves, instead of a job to eat. Isn't that a reason in and of itself to remove work? People working for satisfaction and pleasure instead of trying to make it day to day seems like a massive improvement on many societal ills we face.
- cstross 13y ago
  That mirrors my response to the $20M question, too. Congratulations: you have a vocation, not a job. (Me? I'd finish off my existing more-for-money-than-for-love contracts, because I owe my customers. (I get paid a huge deposit in advance.) Then I'd get a lot more picky about what projects I tackled going forward; more willing to tackle not-obviously-profitable ones and less willing to do uninteresting stuff that merely puts bread on the table. Oh, and I'd hire a full-time copy-editor/proofreader, and PA to handle my expenses and travel arrangements. Then I'd move out of my apartment for 3 months and get it thoroughly remodelled, from the plasterwork up, because it's overdue to be rewired, could use a modern heating system, and I might as well redecorate while I'm about it. But apart from that, not a huge amount would change ...)

harshreality 13y ago

Not needing everyone to work doesn't necessarily mean we're post-scarcity, which means someone has to decide how to allocate scarce resources, in coordination with the people or companies that run and maintain the mostly-automated systems, and that's where the extreme pain shows up.

gregpilling 13y ago

While having a beer last week with some friends, the topic turned to the old question "What would you do if you suddenly had $20 million dollars handed to you?". This is an old question of course, on HN it would be called F U money, but it had been asked that day by a customer of my friend Kevin. Kevin makes jewelry tools. His immediate response was "I could buy more tools and machines!", which was my basic response also. I have a nice new CNC lathe on my list next, a mere $100,000. I think it is funny, that given enough money not to work our (Kevin, me) first reaction is to think of the things we could buy that would let us do more work. For the most part I enjoy my work, and I would get more enjoyment with fancy new equipment. "who can look forward to the age of leisure and of abundance without a dread" does not seem true in this case. YMMV of course. Given FU money, I would probably not work 40 hours a week, every week. It would be more like 10 hours one week and 80 another. When I am in the passion of a new idea, the time flies by and 80 hours feels like nothing. Anyone who has worked all night on a project and then seen the sun rise knows what I mean. I find those times some of the most enjoyable in my life. I think humans like to do things. Make games, write software, build sandcastles, etc. Removing the need for work would not remove the work. The work would just be what we found to be entertaining to ourselves, instead of a job to eat.

acomar 13y ago
> I think humans like to do things. Make games, write software, build sandcastles, etc. Removing the need for work would not remove the work. The work would just be what we found to be entertaining to ourselves, instead of a job to eat. Isn't that a reason in and of itself to remove work? People working for satisfaction and pleasure instead of trying to make it day to day seems like a massive improvement on many societal ills we face.
cstross 13y ago
That mirrors my response to the $20M question, too. Congratulations: you have a vocation, not a job. (Me? I'd finish off my existing more-for-money-than-for-love contracts, because I owe my customers. (I get paid a huge deposit in advance.) Then I'd get a lot more picky about what projects I tackled going forward; more willing to tackle not-obviously-profitable ones and less willing to do uninteresting stuff that merely puts bread on the table. Oh, and I'd hire a full-time copy-editor/proofreader, and PA to handle my expenses and travel arrangements. Then I'd move out of my apartment for 3 months and get it thoroughly remodelled, from the plasterwork up, because it's overdue to be rewired, could use a modern heating system, and I might as well redecorate while I'm about it. But apart from that, not a huge amount would change ...)