4 ms·

While I was in university, I suffered (not knowingly at the time) from pretty bad depression. I basically was extremely self-destructive, and at 19 was experim

by JPKab 13y ago

While I was in university, I suffered (not knowingly at the time) from pretty bad depression. I basically was extremely self-destructive, and at 19 was experimenting with various drugs. My roommate's girlfriend stole a half used bottle of ketamine from a veterinary clinic she worked at. They dried the liquid into powder form in the microwave, and we all used it by snorting it. (as I said, I was hell bent on self destruction) Obviously, whatever dose we obtained would be far, far beyond a clinical amount. I immediately sank into what is called a "k-hole" and had what is often described as an "out of body" sensation. I was 5 years old again, walking along the beach in winter, looking through my father's binoculars at the humpback whales. A feeling of peace and calm came to me, and some amount of time later (perhaps an hour) I awoke from the "k-hole." The sense of peace I felt remained. I wasn't intoxicated, nor did I feel any other effects. I just felt like I had before my girlfriend had died two years before. That was the last time I touched a drug other than alcohol or marijuana.

chimeracoder 13y ago
I have heard similar experiences for MDMA treating PTSD. (There are also a number of studies suggesting its effectiveness when used in conjunction with talk therapy to treat PTSD). If you're interested in learning more, MAPS[0] has a ton of info. [0] http://www.maps.org/ http://www.maps.org/
Blahah 13y ago
To my knowledge I never suffered from depression. When I was a teenager I also experimented with various drugs. At age around 17 me and some friends took a lot of ketamine at a friend's house one night. We went out for a walk at at some point I started k-holing. We were walking along a train line at the time. I collapsed on the line and watched myself lying there. My friends hadn't noticed me fall, they'd carried on. Then I calmly watched myself get hit by a train. I watched my bloody corpse lying there for quite a while. I came back to my senses lying by the rails in a puddle of my own vomit. I hadn't really been hit by the train, although I had watched it, seen my body crumble and split. I spent the next several hours vomiting and feeling atrocious. Ever since then, I occasionally see the image of my own dead body again. That was the last time I touched ketamine, though I carried on experimenting with everything else until my early 20s. Not to detract from your experience, but ketamine can be a disgusting, dangerous drug, and taking it at home is not a sensible approach to depression, drug addiction, or anything.
- Zak 13y ago
  Not to detract from your experience, but ketamine can be a disgusting, dangerous drug, and taking it at home is not a sensible approach to depression, drug addiction, or anything. This is a very black and white statement. Most people probably shouldn't treat serious illnesses by self-medicating with powerful drugs, especially those obtained illegally where the purity of the drug might be questionable. On the other hand, someone with crippling depression who has sought treatment from medical professionals to no avail and is on the verge of suicide has few options and not much to lose. Trying ketamine might well be a reasonable option for such a person - more reasonable than suicide, anyway.
  - cal2 13y ago
    I don't dispute that ketamine may perhaps have some clinical relevance for humans, but unfortunately it wreaks too much havoc on the kidneys for me to consider it as a viable option for treatment of depression.
    - draakon 13y ago
      Those points seemed already covered in the article, but somehow it must have been unclear. First of all, it's unlikely to ever have ketamine as a first-line treatment for a depression. Probably more somewhere near electroconvulsive therapy. ECT also has adverse effects which can't be considered as minor (e.g. severe memory loss). However, at the same time it's recognized as a life-saver for certain population of patients. As I have understood from this research and previous ones, it's hoped that the effect of ketamine would be long-lasting: at least up to months. Not so-called daily anti-depressant pill. The adverse effects of ECT would also be more severe if it would be administered on a daily basis. As it was mentioned, some patients relapsed within days, some were free from depression for up to three months. According to animal research[1], it's prolonged not acute ketamine use that has shown signs of renal and bladder damage. In a review of ketamine-induced vesicopathy[2] it's also noted that 'Very little is known regarding the pathogenesis of its effects on the urinary tract.' I'm not claiming that it doesn't cause any damage, but that it needs more research and currently there's no indication of "renal havoc" after few doses. In light of this, I can't even imagine how someone could call possibility of using ketamine for treatment of depression not viable. However, it may be because I know how disabling severe or even moderate depression is and how much damage it causes to person's life. Each person reacts very differently to anti-depressants and there's large amount of people with treatment resistant depression. It's not like there's silver bullet and because of that we need as many as possible different treatment methods. Depression is life-threatening condition and thus all of those methods can't (and don't need to) be 100% safe. A lot of approved drugs have serious side-effects. Basically it's all about assessing the benefit:risk ratio of a drug. It's not rational to cross any treatment out, just because it may have side-effects. Especially if there's not reasonable amount research done - like with ketamine. When we have more data, then it may show that certain population would need additional doses of ketamine after 1-3 months and the damage to organs is minor or non-existent in such case. Or it may show something else. It's just unthinkable to call it as "not viable" option, yet. [1] Yeung, LY, Rudd JA, Lam WP, Mak YT, Yew DT. (2009) Mice are prone to kidney pathology after prolonged ketamine addiction. Toxicol Lett. 2009 Dec 15;191(2-3):275-8. doi: 10.1016/j.toxlet.2009.09.006. Epub 2009 Sep 17. [2] Middela, S., Pearce, I. (2010) Ketamine-induced vesicopathy: a literature review. Int J Clin Pract. 2011 Jan;65(1):27-30. doi: 10.1111/j.1742-1241.2010.02502.x.
ryanong 13y ago
As beautiful as this story is, I would also like to mention the numerous friends that I have that have unfortunately become extremely addicted to the drug due to this serenity. For many this feeling does not stay and must be chased with more and more K.
- sneak 13y ago
  Additionally, when in full possession of the knowledge of how terrible depression is, and knowing that for some people, using ketamine every day or few days is the only thing that works against their treatment-resistant depression, "the only known treatment for a life-endingly debilitating disease" and "functional addiction" are completely indistinguishable. This happened to the closest person to me in my life, and it destroyed everything we'd worked to build together. Fuck depression. There are drugs like GLYX-13 which is somewhat related to ketamine which works very similarly, but without the psychedelic effects (but presumably _with_ the antidepressant effects). I have high hopes that we'll knock out depression within our generation.
  - abruzzi 13y ago
    > I have high hopes that we'll knock out depression within our generation. Maybe, but depression is like cancer--a general classification with many many underlying causes. The fact that SSRIs, MAOIs and other medications reliable treat many people, and provide zero benefit to other chronic sufferers, suggest many root causes, and no single answer. I'm sure in the years ahead progress will be made, but I'm pessimistic having tried just about everything for the last 30 years with never a positive effect. I'm 45 and have never _not_ suffered from depression.
jes5199 13y ago
Some time ago, I was suffering from several months of severe depression. Out of desperation, I obtained some Ketamine. I carefully measured a dose that was somewhere between theraputic and recreational. I had the experience of seeing myself in the third person, as a narrator: "look at him," I said about my body, "just lying there on the couch." Time passed and I returned to my normal awareness. There was no noticible effect on my depression. Many months later, it gradually abated.
sizzle 13y ago
sorry for your loss, that's a lot to take in at that age.

by JPKab 13y ago

chimeracoder 13y ago

I have heard similar experiences for MDMA treating PTSD. (There are also a number of studies suggesting its effectiveness when used in conjunction with talk therapy to treat PTSD). If you're interested in learning more, MAPS[0] has a ton of info. [0] http://www.maps.org/ http://www.maps.org/

Blahah 13y ago

To my knowledge I never suffered from depression. When I was a teenager I also experimented with various drugs. At age around 17 me and some friends took a lot of ketamine at a friend's house one night. We went out for a walk at at some point I started k-holing. We were walking along a train line at the time. I collapsed on the line and watched myself lying there. My friends hadn't noticed me fall, they'd carried on. Then I calmly watched myself get hit by a train. I watched my bloody corpse lying there for quite a while. I came back to my senses lying by the rails in a puddle of my own vomit. I hadn't really been hit by the train, although I had watched it, seen my body crumble and split. I spent the next several hours vomiting and feeling atrocious. Ever since then, I occasionally see the image of my own dead body again. That was the last time I touched ketamine, though I carried on experimenting with everything else until my early 20s. Not to detract from your experience, but ketamine can be a disgusting, dangerous drug, and taking it at home is not a sensible approach to depression, drug addiction, or anything.

Zak 13y ago
Not to detract from your experience, but ketamine can be a disgusting, dangerous drug, and taking it at home is not a sensible approach to depression, drug addiction, or anything. This is a very black and white statement. Most people probably shouldn't treat serious illnesses by self-medicating with powerful drugs, especially those obtained illegally where the purity of the drug might be questionable. On the other hand, someone with crippling depression who has sought treatment from medical professionals to no avail and is on the verge of suicide has few options and not much to lose. Trying ketamine might well be a reasonable option for such a person - more reasonable than suicide, anyway.
- cal2 13y ago
  I don't dispute that ketamine may perhaps have some clinical relevance for humans, but unfortunately it wreaks too much havoc on the kidneys for me to consider it as a viable option for treatment of depression.
  - draakon 13y ago
    Those points seemed already covered in the article, but somehow it must have been unclear. First of all, it's unlikely to ever have ketamine as a first-line treatment for a depression. Probably more somewhere near electroconvulsive therapy. ECT also has adverse effects which can't be considered as minor (e.g. severe memory loss). However, at the same time it's recognized as a life-saver for certain population of patients. As I have understood from this research and previous ones, it's hoped that the effect of ketamine would be long-lasting: at least up to months. Not so-called daily anti-depressant pill. The adverse effects of ECT would also be more severe if it would be administered on a daily basis. As it was mentioned, some patients relapsed within days, some were free from depression for up to three months. According to animal research[1], it's prolonged not acute ketamine use that has shown signs of renal and bladder damage. In a review of ketamine-induced vesicopathy[2] it's also noted that 'Very little is known regarding the pathogenesis of its effects on the urinary tract.' I'm not claiming that it doesn't cause any damage, but that it needs more research and currently there's no indication of "renal havoc" after few doses. In light of this, I can't even imagine how someone could call possibility of using ketamine for treatment of depression not viable. However, it may be because I know how disabling severe or even moderate depression is and how much damage it causes to person's life. Each person reacts very differently to anti-depressants and there's large amount of people with treatment resistant depression. It's not like there's silver bullet and because of that we need as many as possible different treatment methods. Depression is life-threatening condition and thus all of those methods can't (and don't need to) be 100% safe. A lot of approved drugs have serious side-effects. Basically it's all about assessing the benefit:risk ratio of a drug. It's not rational to cross any treatment out, just because it may have side-effects. Especially if there's not reasonable amount research done - like with ketamine. When we have more data, then it may show that certain population would need additional doses of ketamine after 1-3 months and the damage to organs is minor or non-existent in such case. Or it may show something else. It's just unthinkable to call it as "not viable" option, yet. [1] Yeung, LY, Rudd JA, Lam WP, Mak YT, Yew DT. (2009) Mice are prone to kidney pathology after prolonged ketamine addiction. Toxicol Lett. 2009 Dec 15;191(2-3):275-8. doi: 10.1016/j.toxlet.2009.09.006. Epub 2009 Sep 17. [2] Middela, S., Pearce, I. (2010) Ketamine-induced vesicopathy: a literature review. Int J Clin Pract. 2011 Jan;65(1):27-30. doi: 10.1111/j.1742-1241.2010.02502.x.

ryanong 13y ago

As beautiful as this story is, I would also like to mention the numerous friends that I have that have unfortunately become extremely addicted to the drug due to this serenity. For many this feeling does not stay and must be chased with more and more K.

sneak 13y ago
Additionally, when in full possession of the knowledge of how terrible depression is, and knowing that for some people, using ketamine every day or few days is the only thing that works against their treatment-resistant depression, "the only known treatment for a life-endingly debilitating disease" and "functional addiction" are completely indistinguishable. This happened to the closest person to me in my life, and it destroyed everything we'd worked to build together. Fuck depression. There are drugs like GLYX-13 which is somewhat related to ketamine which works very similarly, but without the psychedelic effects (but presumably _with_ the antidepressant effects). I have high hopes that we'll knock out depression within our generation.
- abruzzi 13y ago
  > I have high hopes that we'll knock out depression within our generation. Maybe, but depression is like cancer--a general classification with many many underlying causes. The fact that SSRIs, MAOIs and other medications reliable treat many people, and provide zero benefit to other chronic sufferers, suggest many root causes, and no single answer. I'm sure in the years ahead progress will be made, but I'm pessimistic having tried just about everything for the last 30 years with never a positive effect. I'm 45 and have never _not_ suffered from depression.

jes5199 13y ago

Some time ago, I was suffering from several months of severe depression. Out of desperation, I obtained some Ketamine. I carefully measured a dose that was somewhere between theraputic and recreational. I had the experience of seeing myself in the third person, as a narrator: "look at him," I said about my body, "just lying there on the couch." Time passed and I returned to my normal awareness. There was no noticible effect on my depression. Many months later, it gradually abated.

sizzle 13y ago

sorry for your loss, that's a lot to take in at that age.