4 ms·

You're thinking of the Cold War, the end of Colonialism and Nuclear Bombs and confusing it with something the EU did.

madaxe_again 13y ago
The EU was born out of the EC, which was born out of the EEC, which was born out of ECSC (European Coal and Steel Community). The entire concept of the EU is that a straightforward homogenous marketplace engenders trade which in turn engenders peace, as attacking your trading partners is rarely a beneficial move. Nuclear weapons and MAD were extant before the EEC and throughout its existence, and have not played a role in the stability of Europe beyond having a common foe on the doorstep to the east. Colonialism/imperialism most certainly has not ended. Many European nations have territories dotted around the globe, many of which are still highly contentious, and the US continues to act on moral principals which fall squarely out of the big book of empire-building. The EU/EC/EEC has achieved plenty - but we humans are not accustomed to understanding accomplishments or progress which occurs on a timescale beyond our own limited lives.
- M2Ys4U 13y ago
  >Colonialism/imperialism most certainly has not ended. Many European nations have territories dotted around the globe, many of which are still highly contentious Some of these territories are considered to be part of the European Union, resulting in the slightly amusing fact that part of South America (French Guiana) is in fact part of the EU!
  - arethuza 13y ago
    And the related trivia question about which country is in the most time zones....
  - mchaver 13y ago
    The sun never sets on the French Republic.
- mattmanser 13y ago
  Come on, that's a silly thing to say, everyone's empires were significantly dismantled after WW2. It's easy not to fight when there's nothing to fight over and you've got a massive bear beating at the door. I'm not claiming the EU's done nothing, I think it's made Europe richer, increased growth, etc., I'm claiming the EU had nothing to do with peace in Europe. Europe would still be at peace today with or without a common market. Especially given that the UK didn't join for 25 years and a bunch more in the 80s and then more recently. And the UK invaded Egypt with France before they were both in the EEC. That was NATO and mutual fear and needing protection from US doing that, not the EU. It was simply being in club capitalism and being very scared of club communism. And the world changed, become smaller. Which developed nations have gone to war with each other since WW2? No European country invaded Norway for it's oil. The UK is seriously talking about letting Scotland drift away without going to war in it. Territory's not the same as it was. Again, my claim is that Europe would still be at peace today with or without a common market, there's literally been no reason to fight.
  - robin_reala 13y ago
    Which developed nations have gone to war with each other since WW2? Argentina / UK for one. And the Balkan conflicts for two.
    - mattmanser 13y ago
      The Balkans was a Yugoslavia civil war at its heart. I give you the Argentina/UK one, but that seriously almost didn't happen. And is really one of the last, thorny, vestiges of colonialism, like Israel.
      - gadders 13y ago
        No it isn't, it's about self-determination.
      - Mvandenbergh 13y ago
        Luckily Argentina's attempt to impose its colonial will was thwarted.
- pjc50 13y ago
  I think it's worth distinguishing between the implementation of the EU (which is .. buggy) and the concept (which is a great universal message of peace and brotherhood and prosperity, so powerful that you have non-EU countries and peoples begging to be admitted)
mercurial 13y ago
Well, he's technically right. The last European wars countries currently in the EU were involved in are the post-Yugoslavia wars (is there a name for them?). Prior to this, we have course the two world wars as the most well-known example of a cycle of destruction and butchery Europeans have displayed a particular taste for, often with exceptionally brutal results (eg, the Thirty Years' War).
- Ygg2 13y ago
  > post-Yugoslavia wars (is there a name for them?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars Also wasn't there Hundred Year War, or are we sticking to modern ages?
  - mercurial 13y ago
    I was specifically referring to the "couple of decades ago" part. Of course, there is a long list of power struggles, for instance in Italy, succession wars and the like.
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  For me, 70 years still is "a couple of decades" and the "cold war" wasn't entirely friendly either, now was it?
arrrg 13y ago
For an example of how things can go wrong even in Europe, despite all of what you listed, just look at the Balkans. I’m quite convinced that the EU and its predecessors were instrumental in keeping Western Europe very stable and very peaceful. The cold war helped, sure, but even 24 years after the end of that stability and peace aren‘t even threatened a little bit. Conflicts can and are routinely solved politically, not through any passive aggressive grandstanding that marks so many other international relationships. (I have always said that to judge supra-national institutions you have to look at how they deal with conflict, not how often they agree or how harmonious they sound when everyone has the same opinion. Those institutions exist to work constructively on solutions for conflicts and problems, that’s when you have to evaluate them. And there is nothing wrong with differences in opinion existing if institutions are in place to resolve that and find a compromise.) Additionally the EU has been very profitable for very many European companies. Creating a common market (still imperfect and still more to profit companies than people, of course) has been a major advantage for everyone.
Xylakant 13y ago
I was born and grew up close to the french border, in a region that was contested between France and Germany and often changed hands. I was lucky to be born after the french-german friendship started to take roots, but I'm well aware that my country and France used to be arch enemies and fought three devastating wars between 1870 and 1970, not to count the petty little border conflicts. I still remember the day that you could just cross the border without a passport check and I'm still amazed every time I cross that border, that the border post, the guards, everything, just disappeared and that the border is now essentially a sign just like I'd enter a city saying "Welcome to France". People that were born elsewhere or later than me don't even recognize the spot any more where the border was. To the contrast, my partner was born and raised close to the Belarussian border and that's still like I remember borders: Armed guards, passport check, fences, need a visa to cross. 20km of queue, 36hours of wait for trucks trying to pass the border. _This_ is what the European Union achieved. It's still messy and there's a lot of things that go wrong and possibly that will never really change, because a union of such diverse people with such diverse and distinct history will never be able to figure out how to cater to all needs in a fair way, but the achievement of having no separating border between so many countries with different rules and regulations, it's just amazing and I cherish it every day and I'm deeply saddened every time I meet people that can't see it.
- zyx321 13y ago
  >People that were born elsewhere or later than me don't even recognize the spot any more where the border was. Which is kind of a shame, because there are few things that make one feel as free as driving past the empty booths of an abandoned checkpoint without even slowing down.

The EU was born out of the EC, which was born out of the EEC, which was born out of ECSC (European Coal and Steel Community). The entire concept of the EU is that a straightforward homogenous marketplace engenders trade which in turn engenders peace, as attacking your trading partners is rarely a beneficial move. Nuclear weapons and MAD were extant before the EEC and throughout its existence, and have not played a role in the stability of Europe beyond having a common foe on the doorstep to the east. Colonialism/imperialism most certainly has not ended. Many European nations have territories dotted around the globe, many of which are still highly contentious, and the US continues to act on moral principals which fall squarely out of the big book of empire-building. The EU/EC/EEC has achieved plenty - but we humans are not accustomed to understanding accomplishments or progress which occurs on a timescale beyond our own limited lives.

M2Ys4U 13y ago
>Colonialism/imperialism most certainly has not ended. Many European nations have territories dotted around the globe, many of which are still highly contentious Some of these territories are considered to be part of the European Union, resulting in the slightly amusing fact that part of South America (French Guiana) is in fact part of the EU!
- arethuza 13y ago
  And the related trivia question about which country is in the most time zones....
- mchaver 13y ago
  The sun never sets on the French Republic.
mattmanser 13y ago
Come on, that's a silly thing to say, everyone's empires were significantly dismantled after WW2. It's easy not to fight when there's nothing to fight over and you've got a massive bear beating at the door. I'm not claiming the EU's done nothing, I think it's made Europe richer, increased growth, etc., I'm claiming the EU had nothing to do with peace in Europe. Europe would still be at peace today with or without a common market. Especially given that the UK didn't join for 25 years and a bunch more in the 80s and then more recently. And the UK invaded Egypt with France before they were both in the EEC. That was NATO and mutual fear and needing protection from US doing that, not the EU. It was simply being in club capitalism and being very scared of club communism. And the world changed, become smaller. Which developed nations have gone to war with each other since WW2? No European country invaded Norway for it's oil. The UK is seriously talking about letting Scotland drift away without going to war in it. Territory's not the same as it was. Again, my claim is that Europe would still be at peace today with or without a common market, there's literally been no reason to fight.
- robin_reala 13y ago
  Which developed nations have gone to war with each other since WW2? Argentina / UK for one. And the Balkan conflicts for two.
  - mattmanser 13y ago
    The Balkans was a Yugoslavia civil war at its heart. I give you the Argentina/UK one, but that seriously almost didn't happen. And is really one of the last, thorny, vestiges of colonialism, like Israel.
    - gadders 13y ago
      No it isn't, it's about self-determination.
    - Mvandenbergh 13y ago
      Luckily Argentina's attempt to impose its colonial will was thwarted.
pjc50 13y ago
I think it's worth distinguishing between the implementation of the EU (which is .. buggy) and the concept (which is a great universal message of peace and brotherhood and prosperity, so powerful that you have non-EU countries and peoples begging to be admitted)

mercurial 13y ago

Well, he's technically right. The last European wars countries currently in the EU were involved in are the post-Yugoslavia wars (is there a name for them?). Prior to this, we have course the two world wars as the most well-known example of a cycle of destruction and butchery Europeans have displayed a particular taste for, often with exceptionally brutal results (eg, the Thirty Years' War).

Ygg2 13y ago
> post-Yugoslavia wars (is there a name for them?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars Also wasn't there Hundred Year War, or are we sticking to modern ages?
- mercurial 13y ago
  I was specifically referring to the "couple of decades ago" part. Of course, there is a long list of power struggles, for instance in Italy, succession wars and the like.
bayesianhorse 13y ago
For me, 70 years still is "a couple of decades" and the "cold war" wasn't entirely friendly either, now was it?

arrrg 13y ago

For an example of how things can go wrong even in Europe, despite all of what you listed, just look at the Balkans. I’m quite convinced that the EU and its predecessors were instrumental in keeping Western Europe very stable and very peaceful. The cold war helped, sure, but even 24 years after the end of that stability and peace aren‘t even threatened a little bit. Conflicts can and are routinely solved politically, not through any passive aggressive grandstanding that marks so many other international relationships. (I have always said that to judge supra-national institutions you have to look at how they deal with conflict, not how often they agree or how harmonious they sound when everyone has the same opinion. Those institutions exist to work constructively on solutions for conflicts and problems, that’s when you have to evaluate them. And there is nothing wrong with differences in opinion existing if institutions are in place to resolve that and find a compromise.) Additionally the EU has been very profitable for very many European companies. Creating a common market (still imperfect and still more to profit companies than people, of course) has been a major advantage for everyone.

Xylakant 13y ago

I was born and grew up close to the french border, in a region that was contested between France and Germany and often changed hands. I was lucky to be born after the french-german friendship started to take roots, but I'm well aware that my country and France used to be arch enemies and fought three devastating wars between 1870 and 1970, not to count the petty little border conflicts. I still remember the day that you could just cross the border without a passport check and I'm still amazed every time I cross that border, that the border post, the guards, everything, just disappeared and that the border is now essentially a sign just like I'd enter a city saying "Welcome to France". People that were born elsewhere or later than me don't even recognize the spot any more where the border was. To the contrast, my partner was born and raised close to the Belarussian border and that's still like I remember borders: Armed guards, passport check, fences, need a visa to cross. 20km of queue, 36hours of wait for trucks trying to pass the border. _This_ is what the European Union achieved. It's still messy and there's a lot of things that go wrong and possibly that will never really change, because a union of such diverse people with such diverse and distinct history will never be able to figure out how to cater to all needs in a fair way, but the achievement of having no separating border between so many countries with different rules and regulations, it's just amazing and I cherish it every day and I'm deeply saddened every time I meet people that can't see it.

zyx321 13y ago
>People that were born elsewhere or later than me don't even recognize the spot any more where the border was. Which is kind of a shame, because there are few things that make one feel as free as driving past the empty booths of an abandoned checkpoint without even slowing down.