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> Why do you need a woman? Because role models are a great thing thing for a young person to have. Why is it a problem for him to want a female role model for

> Why do you need a woman? Because role models are a great thing thing for a young person to have. Why is it a problem for him to want a female role model for a female child? Why do you think that "wanting his daughter to meet a female engineer" represents inequality? Do you think that it would somehow be more equal for women to only have male role models?

JohnHaugeland 13y ago
"Do you think that it would somehow be more equal for women to only have male role models?" You seem to be going to great effort to misunderstand me. By saying "I think young people should have access to everyone, not just people demographically like them," you seem to have heard "I think young women should only have access to people unlike them." A call for inclusion has been misrepresented as a call for exclusion. . "Why is it a problem for him to want a female role model for a female child?" For the same reason that it would be a problem to only want male role models for male children. It reinforces existing problems and stereotypes, prevents social connections across demographics, limits group knowledge cross pollination, and limits the students' access to whoever is the best mentor available in the case that that mentor does not match them demographically. . "Why do you think that "wanting his daughter to meet a female engineer" represents inequality?" Does this actually need to be explained?
- amputect 13y ago
  It's absolutely trivial to meet male engineers. Many, if not most, of his daughters role models will end up being male engineers. The effort isn't to exclude men from being involved in her career choice / education, the effort is to include a woman in it.
  - JohnHaugeland 13y ago
    I had asked you several questions. Were those going to be responded to?
- king_jester 13y ago
  > By saying "I think young people should have access to everyone, not just people demographically like them," you seem to have heard "I think young women should only have access to people unlike them." > A call for inclusion has been misrepresented as a call for exclusion. In terms of gender, cisgender men by far the norm, they have no problem being represented. Women in general are not as well represented, someone looking for a women as a role model would have to look harder to find someone. To that end, a highly represented group doesn't need special consideration to be included, they are heavily included already. > For the same reason that it would be a problem to only want male role models for male children. It reinforces existing problems and stereotypes, prevents social connections across demographics, limits group knowledge cross pollination, and limits the students' access to whoever is the best mentor available in the case that that mentor does not match them demographically. Nobody is arguing that role models should be limited. Indeed, if this person's daughter pursues STEM they will likely have a man as a role model at some point since they are well represented. Groups of people that are not as well represented will be harder to come across so it is not a bad idea for someone to seek out different people. > Does this actually need to be explained? It does to a certain degree, as it seems that you feel that the extra search and effort to find a woman role model detracts from the dominant group.
  - JohnHaugeland 13y ago
    I feel like I can't reply because I'm being mass downvoted for saying "I think women should have access to everybody" and being told that that makes me a bad person. "Nobody is arguing that role models should be limited." The entire tree I'm responding to is.
    - silencio 13y ago
      I don't actually see where anyone says they should be limited until I read your comments assuming that. The frustrating bit is that you're basically on the same page as your downvoters if your ultimate message is "everyone should have access to everyone". The father wants to make sure his daughter gets access to both male and female role models at which point she can choose one or two or all or none of them if she wants - that is the complete opposite of _limiting_ role models. People replying to you think it's okay for him to seek out a female engineer specifically because if he doesn't try, she's ending up with a male role model (not a bad thing) out of a pool of only men right now (the bad thing). He's not saying "my daughter will ONLY have female role models or else" or "men can't be role models for my daughter" or "the woman I find from this Ask HN must be my daughter's role model". He's also not asking for male role models because he thinks they make bad role models for women, rather that they're very common as half the men in his social circle can act as one for his daughter. I would also fully expect him and others to care just as much about finding a similar potential role model had he had a son instead of a daughter. Personally, most of my role models were male, but it would have been nice to encounter more women along the way. I have different conversations with other women than I do with men that aren't my husband in the tech industry. It's also a coping mechanism when I deal with sexism that men don't fully understand because they're not used to or aware of it. (I recognize that the complete opposite happens in some fields and I don't approve of any of the sexism, I just don't see what's wrong with doing what you can and taking advantage of what you can if you need to.)

JohnHaugeland 13y ago

"Do you think that it would somehow be more equal for women to only have male role models?" You seem to be going to great effort to misunderstand me. By saying "I think young people should have access to everyone, not just people demographically like them," you seem to have heard "I think young women should only have access to people unlike them." A call for inclusion has been misrepresented as a call for exclusion. . "Why is it a problem for him to want a female role model for a female child?" For the same reason that it would be a problem to only want male role models for male children. It reinforces existing problems and stereotypes, prevents social connections across demographics, limits group knowledge cross pollination, and limits the students' access to whoever is the best mentor available in the case that that mentor does not match them demographically. . "Why do you think that "wanting his daughter to meet a female engineer" represents inequality?" Does this actually need to be explained?

amputect 13y ago
It's absolutely trivial to meet male engineers. Many, if not most, of his daughters role models will end up being male engineers. The effort isn't to exclude men from being involved in her career choice / education, the effort is to include a woman in it.
- JohnHaugeland 13y ago
  I had asked you several questions. Were those going to be responded to?
king_jester 13y ago
> By saying "I think young people should have access to everyone, not just people demographically like them," you seem to have heard "I think young women should only have access to people unlike them." > A call for inclusion has been misrepresented as a call for exclusion. In terms of gender, cisgender men by far the norm, they have no problem being represented. Women in general are not as well represented, someone looking for a women as a role model would have to look harder to find someone. To that end, a highly represented group doesn't need special consideration to be included, they are heavily included already. > For the same reason that it would be a problem to only want male role models for male children. It reinforces existing problems and stereotypes, prevents social connections across demographics, limits group knowledge cross pollination, and limits the students' access to whoever is the best mentor available in the case that that mentor does not match them demographically. Nobody is arguing that role models should be limited. Indeed, if this person's daughter pursues STEM they will likely have a man as a role model at some point since they are well represented. Groups of people that are not as well represented will be harder to come across so it is not a bad idea for someone to seek out different people. > Does this actually need to be explained? It does to a certain degree, as it seems that you feel that the extra search and effort to find a woman role model detracts from the dominant group.
- JohnHaugeland 13y ago
  I feel like I can't reply because I'm being mass downvoted for saying "I think women should have access to everybody" and being told that that makes me a bad person. "Nobody is arguing that role models should be limited." The entire tree I'm responding to is.
  - silencio 13y ago
    I don't actually see where anyone says they should be limited until I read your comments assuming that. The frustrating bit is that you're basically on the same page as your downvoters if your ultimate message is "everyone should have access to everyone". The father wants to make sure his daughter gets access to both male and female role models at which point she can choose one or two or all or none of them if she wants - that is the complete opposite of _limiting_ role models. People replying to you think it's okay for him to seek out a female engineer specifically because if he doesn't try, she's ending up with a male role model (not a bad thing) out of a pool of only men right now (the bad thing). He's not saying "my daughter will ONLY have female role models or else" or "men can't be role models for my daughter" or "the woman I find from this Ask HN must be my daughter's role model". He's also not asking for male role models because he thinks they make bad role models for women, rather that they're very common as half the men in his social circle can act as one for his daughter. I would also fully expect him and others to care just as much about finding a similar potential role model had he had a son instead of a daughter. Personally, most of my role models were male, but it would have been nice to encounter more women along the way. I have different conversations with other women than I do with men that aren't my husband in the tech industry. It's also a coping mechanism when I deal with sexism that men don't fully understand because they're not used to or aware of it. (I recognize that the complete opposite happens in some fields and I don't approve of any of the sexism, I just don't see what's wrong with doing what you can and taking advantage of what you can if you need to.)