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I'm not arguing that we should get rid of code altogether, that is an impossible task. I'm saying that we shouldn't require code for things that can be automate

I'm not arguing that we should get rid of code altogether, that is an impossible task. I'm saying that we shouldn't require code for things that can be automated, and there sure are tons of parts of web development that can be.

lambdasquirrel 13y ago
The truth is that programmers have been trying to automate themselves since the beginning of the trade. Garbage collection, higher order functions, automated deployment tools, wordpress, they are all related. We are lazy, we don't like doing meaningless repetitive stuff that somehow nonetheless requires programming experience. As far as I can tell, lowering the cost of implementing software hasn't put a dent in the demand for programmers.
- kkilat 13y ago
  I agree, I don't think this is about eliminating programming "jobs" at all. It's really about eliminating the "meaningless repetitive work" you mentioned. In that way it could actually be freeing to developers -- allowing you to focus more of your time and energy on the really innovative things that CAN'T be automated.
  - jarrett 13y ago
    Today we have such powerful tools for web development that, at least for me, there is hardly any "meaningless and repetitive work" involved. Those aspects of the job have been automated. For example, I use SCSS instead of pure CSS, eliminating whole classes of drudgery. I use Rails' form_for instead of manually populating text fields with their current values. Another class of drudgery eliminated. What's left is still coding, without the repetitive parts. Instead of going on vacation, I take the extra time to produce more and better software.
palakchokshi 13y ago
Don't widgets, controls, etc. do just that? As you mention they are just parts and to create complex applications you still have to consider business logic, data access, third party API integration(if needed), interaction logic, navigation logic, etc. You are looking at this strictly from a web designer's point of view, which is understandable since you are one, however creating applications is much more complex and we've automated the parts of web development that could be automated. Sure you can come up with more widgets and controls but the framework is already defined.
- callmevlad 13y ago
  Yes and no. We're starting with solving for web designers, and the vast majority of their work comes nowhere near the complexity of full-blown applications. The fact that a designer has to know how wire up a form submission, or have to write JavaScript just to get a navigation bar working, or worry about setting up a MySQL server just to get some dynamic content on the page seems broken. It feels like what blogging used to be in the 90s - code HTML and push via FTP. But we've moved past that, and I know we can move past hand-coding HTML/CSS/Wordpress when creating dynamic websites and simple applications (of which many are glorified CRUD form wrappers).
  - palakchokshi 13y ago
    Ok let's look at some of the use cases you mentioned. Wire up form submission: Submitting a form in just HTML requires setting the action attribute to point to a backend that will accept the form and do something with it. Wiring it up does not require knowledge of code, it requires knowledge of knowing where to post that form to. What kind of automation do you envision here? Writing Javascript to get navigation bar working: Lots of widgets/controls exist with javascript based behavior enclosed with the UI(they even have extension points via properties that can change how the control behaves by setting properties e.g. slide left slowly, slide up with a bounce, etc). If you need your navigation bar to behave in a custom way there is no way around writing javascript to implement your custom behavior. Setting up MySQL server to get dynamic content on the page: Unless you want to put MySQL connection code directly in the frontend(not recommended) you will have to write some code to get the data from the backend. Now if your goal is to move away from hand-coding simple applications and Wordpress templates for creating simple Websites then the Title of your blog post is a tad exaggerated at best and a bit of link baiting at worst.

lambdasquirrel 13y ago

The truth is that programmers have been trying to automate themselves since the beginning of the trade. Garbage collection, higher order functions, automated deployment tools, wordpress, they are all related. We are lazy, we don't like doing meaningless repetitive stuff that somehow nonetheless requires programming experience. As far as I can tell, lowering the cost of implementing software hasn't put a dent in the demand for programmers.

kkilat 13y ago
I agree, I don't think this is about eliminating programming "jobs" at all. It's really about eliminating the "meaningless repetitive work" you mentioned. In that way it could actually be freeing to developers -- allowing you to focus more of your time and energy on the really innovative things that CAN'T be automated.
- jarrett 13y ago
  Today we have such powerful tools for web development that, at least for me, there is hardly any "meaningless and repetitive work" involved. Those aspects of the job have been automated. For example, I use SCSS instead of pure CSS, eliminating whole classes of drudgery. I use Rails' form_for instead of manually populating text fields with their current values. Another class of drudgery eliminated. What's left is still coding, without the repetitive parts. Instead of going on vacation, I take the extra time to produce more and better software.

palakchokshi 13y ago

Don't widgets, controls, etc. do just that? As you mention they are just parts and to create complex applications you still have to consider business logic, data access, third party API integration(if needed), interaction logic, navigation logic, etc. You are looking at this strictly from a web designer's point of view, which is understandable since you are one, however creating applications is much more complex and we've automated the parts of web development that could be automated. Sure you can come up with more widgets and controls but the framework is already defined.

callmevlad 13y ago
Yes and no. We're starting with solving for web designers, and the vast majority of their work comes nowhere near the complexity of full-blown applications. The fact that a designer has to know how wire up a form submission, or have to write JavaScript just to get a navigation bar working, or worry about setting up a MySQL server just to get some dynamic content on the page seems broken. It feels like what blogging used to be in the 90s - code HTML and push via FTP. But we've moved past that, and I know we can move past hand-coding HTML/CSS/Wordpress when creating dynamic websites and simple applications (of which many are glorified CRUD form wrappers).
- palakchokshi 13y ago
  Ok let's look at some of the use cases you mentioned. Wire up form submission: Submitting a form in just HTML requires setting the action attribute to point to a backend that will accept the form and do something with it. Wiring it up does not require knowledge of code, it requires knowledge of knowing where to post that form to. What kind of automation do you envision here? Writing Javascript to get navigation bar working: Lots of widgets/controls exist with javascript based behavior enclosed with the UI(they even have extension points via properties that can change how the control behaves by setting properties e.g. slide left slowly, slide up with a bounce, etc). If you need your navigation bar to behave in a custom way there is no way around writing javascript to implement your custom behavior. Setting up MySQL server to get dynamic content on the page: Unless you want to put MySQL connection code directly in the frontend(not recommended) you will have to write some code to get the data from the backend. Now if your goal is to move away from hand-coding simple applications and Wordpress templates for creating simple Websites then the Title of your blog post is a tad exaggerated at best and a bit of link baiting at worst.