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I am a Romanian and I lived through all three systems. Why I say three: I lived 10 years through the worst period of communism, 10 through the savage transition

by yiedyie 13y ago

I am a Romanian and I lived through all three systems. Why I say three: I lived 10 years through the worst period of communism, 10 through the savage transition and more than 10 through the crony capitalism. And although I pay a lot for not leaving with all the waves of brain drain, it deserves all I pay to experience this, all three systems are so similar, the way they sell themselves is different. At least they had the chance to survey those files and learn from them. Imagine us survey our files at NSA, GCHQ or any other services that gets its targets from linkedin. It will never happen.

bippi 13y ago
"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- John Kenneth Galbraith
davidw 13y ago
> all three systems are so similar Although when the father went back to Romania, no one tried to hold him in prison for 10 years and torture him, so perhaps something has changed - no?
- yiedyie 13y ago
  Your argument would have been very powerful if I would have said that the system is identical. Of course it changed, but is similar in structure, upward mobility, morality etc. Of course it had other ways for rewarding dissidents: by not caring about them. Many of whom where not really integrated in the economic reality, and this time would fight a harsher world, at least in communism they had the support of those who hated communism. Many withered away in poverty, anonymity and alcohol. They tried to avert us that many of those holding power where from the same circles as the previous regime but to no avail.
- firstOrder 13y ago
  What are you talking about? Romania has secret prisons where people are held without trial and tortured. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/08/world/europe/08iht-prisons.2.6061008.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/08/world/europe/08iht-prisons...
  - davidw 13y ago
    So you don't think it has changed?
tinbad 13y ago
Because in your country, just like in mine (Russia) it's not about the system, but the people. We don't know how to have a democracy, we have no idea how to be decent human beings, we do not how to deal with power, we do not know how to deal with money. We can change system as much as we want, we cannot change ourselves. This is the depressing reality of our countries.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  In any given region, you will likely see a lot of extreme savagery if you go back in time far enough. So, everything and everybody can change, given enough time. You yourself are just demonstrating it, too, by being depressed by the state of things, instead of assuming that's just the way it has to be, right? :)
- brc 13y ago
  You have a point. 'Western' liberalism has its roots in the Magna Carta of England, sparking the idea that the individuals have rights over the the state. This tradition, coupled with the enlightenment and the idea of liberal democracies has a very long history in Britain, and bequeathed to the US and other places around the world. It's not easy to just adopt these practices wholesale without understanding the fundamental concepts from which they spring. I think you should have hope for your people and your countries - these ideas are contagious and we live in a world of instant communication and instant spread of ideas. Each generation hence will work towards improvement as long as they continue the fight against oppressive authoritarian socialist states re-emerging.
  - tinbad 13y ago
    I had hope until our president invaded our neighbor. But I agree, things like more or less free communication, better educated population and politicians that are at least held accountable by their western counterparts and the rise of the global economy will most likely improve things for the better rather than worsen the situation. Your analysis is spot on though as a lot of our 'misery' is engrained in our culture and that simply takes more/longer to change than merely switching government.
JanezStupar 13y ago
It seems so because the system hasn't really changed. Only the flag did. It will take at least a generation to transition out of the current system. If people work hard at that goal. If they don't it will take even longer. This is what eastern Europeans need to understand.
moesi 13y ago
I beg to differ. Sure, some problems still remained even though the systems changed, but I find the situation has improved significantly in the past 15 years (I'm not counting the neo-communism years after the 89 revolution). There still are corruption scandals, but for better or worse people have learned they have their rights, and if someone breaks the law they can be held accountable, no matter who they are. And as bad as we like to think our political class is, the democratic process is not really being undermined. And economically, sure, the living standard is still well below the EU average, but the economy is functional. And if you're talented and hardworking, there is nothing stoping you from becoming wealthy. My grandparents were in a similar situation to the one described in the article, and the communist state persecuted them throughout their lives. Simply knowing for a fact that one's rights and property are respected can make a big difference in the quality of people's lives in my opinion. So yeah, I think there are systems that are inherently better than others. And while there still are things to fix in Romania, we've changed a lot in the last 25 years.

by yiedyie 13y ago

bippi 13y ago

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- John Kenneth Galbraith

davidw 13y ago

> all three systems are so similar Although when the father went back to Romania, no one tried to hold him in prison for 10 years and torture him, so perhaps something has changed - no?

yiedyie 13y ago
Your argument would have been very powerful if I would have said that the system is identical. Of course it changed, but is similar in structure, upward mobility, morality etc. Of course it had other ways for rewarding dissidents: by not caring about them. Many of whom where not really integrated in the economic reality, and this time would fight a harsher world, at least in communism they had the support of those who hated communism. Many withered away in poverty, anonymity and alcohol. They tried to avert us that many of those holding power where from the same circles as the previous regime but to no avail.
firstOrder 13y ago
What are you talking about? Romania has secret prisons where people are held without trial and tortured. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/08/world/europe/08iht-prisons.2.6061008.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/08/world/europe/08iht-prisons...
- davidw 13y ago
  So you don't think it has changed?

tinbad 13y ago

Because in your country, just like in mine (Russia) it's not about the system, but the people. We don't know how to have a democracy, we have no idea how to be decent human beings, we do not how to deal with power, we do not know how to deal with money. We can change system as much as we want, we cannot change ourselves. This is the depressing reality of our countries.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
In any given region, you will likely see a lot of extreme savagery if you go back in time far enough. So, everything and everybody can change, given enough time. You yourself are just demonstrating it, too, by being depressed by the state of things, instead of assuming that's just the way it has to be, right? :)
brc 13y ago
You have a point. 'Western' liberalism has its roots in the Magna Carta of England, sparking the idea that the individuals have rights over the the state. This tradition, coupled with the enlightenment and the idea of liberal democracies has a very long history in Britain, and bequeathed to the US and other places around the world. It's not easy to just adopt these practices wholesale without understanding the fundamental concepts from which they spring. I think you should have hope for your people and your countries - these ideas are contagious and we live in a world of instant communication and instant spread of ideas. Each generation hence will work towards improvement as long as they continue the fight against oppressive authoritarian socialist states re-emerging.
- tinbad 13y ago
  I had hope until our president invaded our neighbor. But I agree, things like more or less free communication, better educated population and politicians that are at least held accountable by their western counterparts and the rise of the global economy will most likely improve things for the better rather than worsen the situation. Your analysis is spot on though as a lot of our 'misery' is engrained in our culture and that simply takes more/longer to change than merely switching government.

JanezStupar 13y ago

It seems so because the system hasn't really changed. Only the flag did. It will take at least a generation to transition out of the current system. If people work hard at that goal. If they don't it will take even longer. This is what eastern Europeans need to understand.

moesi 13y ago

I beg to differ. Sure, some problems still remained even though the systems changed, but I find the situation has improved significantly in the past 15 years (I'm not counting the neo-communism years after the 89 revolution). There still are corruption scandals, but for better or worse people have learned they have their rights, and if someone breaks the law they can be held accountable, no matter who they are. And as bad as we like to think our political class is, the democratic process is not really being undermined. And economically, sure, the living standard is still well below the EU average, but the economy is functional. And if you're talented and hardworking, there is nothing stoping you from becoming wealthy. My grandparents were in a similar situation to the one described in the article, and the communist state persecuted them throughout their lives. Simply knowing for a fact that one's rights and property are respected can make a big difference in the quality of people's lives in my opinion. So yeah, I think there are systems that are inherently better than others. And while there still are things to fix in Romania, we've changed a lot in the last 25 years.