4 ms·

Computers may have been invented out of intellectual curiosity, but they were produced for war. Now what? Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Haber ht

Computers may have been invented out of intellectual curiosity, but they were produced for war. Now what? Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Haber http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Haber -- just the glasses should be enough to tell you this man might be very evil, and he is indeed "the father of chemical warfare". But wait, he's also responsible for the discovery that allows huge numbers of people to live. Now what? Let's simply assume Brendan Eich is a very evil man, that prop 8 is just the tip of the iceberg. Well, but, Mozilla. Now what? How about this, if you propose to throw the baby out with the bath water, find us a new baby first? Let's use computation machines invented for love, let's use fertilizer invented by someone who had at least contact lenses, let's use browsers and languages made by catholic priests who secretly marry gay couples and get hunted all over the world by the pope for that. I'd be down with that... but first they need to exist. Until then, to let billions of people starve, or to give even more of the web up to Google and Apple, is not actually morally superior to the alternative of realizing that life is messy, humans doubly so, and we don't just owe a lot of what we take for granted to saints, but to the whole spectrum. > "those who seek to deny love and instead enforce misery, shame and frustration". That in itself is a rather vicious and dehumanizing view. It's awfully convenient to have people who are pure evil while you yourself are pure good -- it's also nonsense.

bakhy 13y ago
actually, Eich could just step down. problem solved. no need for all the drama, dude ;)
- gcp 13y ago
  That's equal to admitting your career in a technological organization is strongly determined by whatever personal political views you hold.
  - bakhy 13y ago
    no, i'm just pointing out that there is no need to launch any kind of crusade against Mozilla, as the parent implied. it isn't such an XOR situation - either accept everything Eich does, or drop Mozilla altogether. i'm still using Mozilla. protesting him as the CEO does not imply abandoning or destroying Mozilla. JavaScript neither! and it's not really my career or your career, he's the CEO (!) of Mozilla. it is a company with a certain ideal behind it, and he has opened discussion on whether his past behavior is at odds with that. his defenders too often here take the position that there simply should not be such a discussion... personally, i do think it is a bit blown out of proportion. but it did offend me. particularly the claim that it is just his freedom of opinion and that Mozilla itself would crumble if he would change his opinion now (?!) and all that hiding behind Indonesian people, what's up with that? in any case, for me it is about me, and my life. it is not some abstract subject. it's not something i can just donate a little money to, and ignore it the rest of the time. it was people voting about my life (i'm from Croatia, but we had our referendum last year), and about a subject that will not concern their life or family at all.. i just must complain... because i don't want to use Chrome :)
    - gcp 13y ago
      protesting him as the CEO does not imply abandoning or destroying Mozilla Protesting Eich as CEO on grounds of his personal beliefs has very very strong repercussions for Mozilla as a community. and it's not really my career or your career It is my career. I'm not CEO and I haven't spoken out on gay marriage, but I have spoken out, personally, on any number of subjects. If Eich is forced to step down, I'd consider myself on strong notice that any personally made statement on any political or moral subject could be a serious limitation to my technical career, even if at the moment I make it it's the majority opinion. How downright insane is that? and all that hiding behind Indonesian people, what's up with that He's pointing out that there's Mozilla communities who see things very very differently from the USA-centric shitstorm that he's experiencing. Should we kick them out, or limit their careers, for being bigots?
      - bakhy 13y ago
        re.1 - well, not as serious repercussions as implied in the comment above, that was my point. i'm sorry, but i cannot subscribe to the idea that i should either abandon Mozilla completely or never criticize it's choice of CEO. (no matter how many downvotes i will get on this site in the process...) that's what i wanted to say. of course, this could do damage to Mozilla's reputation, but that's not, by itself, grounds for dismissal of the discussion. the rest, however, are good arguments. re.2 - it is, you are right. but i think one issue remains - is his sponsorship of Prop 8 at odds with Mozilla ideals? that should matter when choosing Mozilla's CEO. re.3 - no. i think it would just be nice if Eich would stand behind his opinion, instead of dragging both Mozilla's future and the whole country of Indonesia into this. none of those Indonesian contributors are CEOs of Mozilla, so their political views do not reflect on the company itself. if a known anti-LGBT Indonesian became CEO, then I don't know, we would probably see a similar reaction. and P.S. it is kinda racist to imply that all Indonesians are against gay marriage. his dragging that whole country into this is not cool.

bakhy 13y ago

actually, Eich could just step down. problem solved. no need for all the drama, dude ;)

gcp 13y ago
That's equal to admitting your career in a technological organization is strongly determined by whatever personal political views you hold.
- bakhy 13y ago
  no, i'm just pointing out that there is no need to launch any kind of crusade against Mozilla, as the parent implied. it isn't such an XOR situation - either accept everything Eich does, or drop Mozilla altogether. i'm still using Mozilla. protesting him as the CEO does not imply abandoning or destroying Mozilla. JavaScript neither! and it's not really my career or your career, he's the CEO (!) of Mozilla. it is a company with a certain ideal behind it, and he has opened discussion on whether his past behavior is at odds with that. his defenders too often here take the position that there simply should not be such a discussion... personally, i do think it is a bit blown out of proportion. but it did offend me. particularly the claim that it is just his freedom of opinion and that Mozilla itself would crumble if he would change his opinion now (?!) and all that hiding behind Indonesian people, what's up with that? in any case, for me it is about me, and my life. it is not some abstract subject. it's not something i can just donate a little money to, and ignore it the rest of the time. it was people voting about my life (i'm from Croatia, but we had our referendum last year), and about a subject that will not concern their life or family at all.. i just must complain... because i don't want to use Chrome :)
  - gcp 13y ago
    protesting him as the CEO does not imply abandoning or destroying Mozilla Protesting Eich as CEO on grounds of his personal beliefs has very very strong repercussions for Mozilla as a community. and it's not really my career or your career It is my career. I'm not CEO and I haven't spoken out on gay marriage, but I have spoken out, personally, on any number of subjects. If Eich is forced to step down, I'd consider myself on strong notice that any personally made statement on any political or moral subject could be a serious limitation to my technical career, even if at the moment I make it it's the majority opinion. How downright insane is that? and all that hiding behind Indonesian people, what's up with that He's pointing out that there's Mozilla communities who see things very very differently from the USA-centric shitstorm that he's experiencing. Should we kick them out, or limit their careers, for being bigots?
    - bakhy 13y ago
      re.1 - well, not as serious repercussions as implied in the comment above, that was my point. i'm sorry, but i cannot subscribe to the idea that i should either abandon Mozilla completely or never criticize it's choice of CEO. (no matter how many downvotes i will get on this site in the process...) that's what i wanted to say. of course, this could do damage to Mozilla's reputation, but that's not, by itself, grounds for dismissal of the discussion. the rest, however, are good arguments. re.2 - it is, you are right. but i think one issue remains - is his sponsorship of Prop 8 at odds with Mozilla ideals? that should matter when choosing Mozilla's CEO. re.3 - no. i think it would just be nice if Eich would stand behind his opinion, instead of dragging both Mozilla's future and the whole country of Indonesia into this. none of those Indonesian contributors are CEOs of Mozilla, so their political views do not reflect on the company itself. if a known anti-LGBT Indonesian became CEO, then I don't know, we would probably see a similar reaction. and P.S. it is kinda racist to imply that all Indonesians are against gay marriage. his dragging that whole country into this is not cool.