5 ms·

I notice OKCupid still uses JavaScript. Just sayin'.

by ceautery 13y ago

lmm 13y ago
Eich does not control the ECMA standard.
- Ygg2 13y ago
  He did wrote pretty much all of JavaScript. They could skip over that part. It's not impossible. They can stick to HTML and CSS.
phpnode 13y ago
yes, because theirs was a cheap marketing stunt, rather than a principled stand.
- ceautery 13y ago
  A cheap marketing stunt would have been to redirect Firefox users to Christian Singles. I won't presume to second-guess OKC's motives, and I'm glad they took some sort of stand for the LGBT community, but I think they ultimately alienated their users.
zimpenfish 13y ago
He created Javascript, what, 15 years? before he supported Prop 8. Trying to bring that into the argument is a ridiculous strawman.
- moron4hire 13y ago
  So was bringing Firefox into the argument, considering he had been CTO the entire time since Prop 8.
  - kzrdude 13y ago
    I'm not very into this discussion, but I don't get how this has turned into something so big. Has California divided into two tribes (from the relatively evenly split referendum) where everyone in one tribe is calling the other tribe bigots? And is that a reasonable way to view the world (now multiple years afterwards)? Edit: I forgot, of course, the big group that didn't vote at all.
    - moron4hire 13y ago
      That seems to be the case. If we're going to start calling for chief officers to resign because they hold views we don't agree with, I'm not sure there would be many companies left unscathed. Certainly half of the NFL and NBA teams would be eviscerated. And who is the "we" who gets to decide what is agreeable? No, I don't agree with the view behind Prop 8, but neither am I comfortable drawing such a line. To me, drawing such a line is equivalent to Prop 8 in the first place.
      - lenazegher 13y ago
        Would you feel the same way if he'd donated $1000 to a campaign to outlaw interracial marriage?
        pdpi 13y ago
        Yes. Yes I would. More to the point: If the tables were turned and it had been a pro-gay marriage CEO in a conservative company, we'd all be bitching and moaning about corporate culture suppressing the dissenting opinion. Why aren't we doing so when we don't agree with the dissenting opinion? Mozilla's mission has nothing to do with gay rights, it's all about what the web should look like. Eich's opinion on gay marriage is immaterial to his work as CEO. Now, it just so happen that there's a far few queer and ally Mozillians. If Eich's personal opinion were to extend into company policy about those people (or, in general, if his governance were to massively disagree with the company culture in any way), I'd question his fitness to lead. But coming from a company built on inclusiveness and tolerance, the shitstorm they're making about a member's personal opinions seems quite hypocritical, to be completely honest.
  - zimpenfish 13y ago
    There's a reasonable difference between being the CTO (responsible for technical direction) and CEO (responsible for all direction including, presumably, inclusivity of staff) though.
    - moron4hire 13y ago
      I'm presuming Eich identifies as religious, some form of Christian to guess. Regardless, if he isn't, it doesn't matter to the principle. Any CEO who is has to "check at the door" his views on the religions of the world to work as the CEO at Mozilla, where there are undoubtedly many Muslims, Jews, and Athiests (not to exclude any religions, just naming the top four). If we can't expect Eich to leave his views about gay marriage behind, then how can we expect any CEO of any religion to be respectful of his employees and customers of differing religion? No, I do not recognize your assertion that there is a "reasonable" difference.
      - zimpenfish 13y ago
        If you don't see the difference between being CTO and being CEO, we have a fundamental baseline disagreement that we're not going to resolve by arguing about the rest of it. I think promoting him was a mistake; you don't. Such is life.
        moron4hire 13y ago
        It's not like we're talking about David Green at Hobby Lobby here. In any of these discussions I've read, nobody has suggested that Eich has worked to mold Mozilla into his personal political or religious vision. Green--on the other hand--is actively trying to tell his employees how to use their compensation given for the work they've done for him. Would Green reach into his employee's pockets and take out greenbacks if he knew they were being used to buy condoms and booze? The proposition is more likely than Eich discriminating against gays in his role at Mozilla. If Eich has actively discriminated against employees at Mozilla, then yeah, he needs to be kicked out. Show me where that has happened. But what he does in his private life (that he didn't advertise, which makes this an excellent case study in the need for privacy-even-for-legal-activities) has no bearing.
SEMW 13y ago
To devil's advocate on behalf of okcupid: I don't see that there's any moral inconsistency about being happy to use something made by someone you consider problematic, while still not wanting that person to have an ongoing position of power. Richard Wagner was an anti-semite. I see nothing contradictory about enjoying his music while also thinking that (if he was still alive) he shouldn't run an organisation of musicians which has Jewish members. (To be clear: I'm not saying I necessarily hold that position wrt Eich, just that contrary to the parent's implication, it isn't a hypocritical position to hold).
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- vezzy-fnord 13y ago
  Except they're explicitly urging for Firefox to be boycotted, so they certainly have a bone to pick.

I notice OKCupid still uses JavaScript. Just sayin'.

lmm 13y ago

Eich does not control the ECMA standard.

Ygg2 13y ago
He did wrote pretty much all of JavaScript. They could skip over that part. It's not impossible. They can stick to HTML and CSS.

phpnode 13y ago

yes, because theirs was a cheap marketing stunt, rather than a principled stand.

ceautery 13y ago
A cheap marketing stunt would have been to redirect Firefox users to Christian Singles. I won't presume to second-guess OKC's motives, and I'm glad they took some sort of stand for the LGBT community, but I think they ultimately alienated their users.

zimpenfish 13y ago

He created Javascript, what, 15 years? before he supported Prop 8. Trying to bring that into the argument is a ridiculous strawman.

moron4hire 13y ago
So was bringing Firefox into the argument, considering he had been CTO the entire time since Prop 8.
- kzrdude 13y ago
  I'm not very into this discussion, but I don't get how this has turned into something so big. Has California divided into two tribes (from the relatively evenly split referendum) where everyone in one tribe is calling the other tribe bigots? And is that a reasonable way to view the world (now multiple years afterwards)? Edit: I forgot, of course, the big group that didn't vote at all.
  - moron4hire 13y ago
    That seems to be the case. If we're going to start calling for chief officers to resign because they hold views we don't agree with, I'm not sure there would be many companies left unscathed. Certainly half of the NFL and NBA teams would be eviscerated. And who is the "we" who gets to decide what is agreeable? No, I don't agree with the view behind Prop 8, but neither am I comfortable drawing such a line. To me, drawing such a line is equivalent to Prop 8 in the first place.
    - lenazegher 13y ago
      Would you feel the same way if he'd donated $1000 to a campaign to outlaw interracial marriage?
      - pdpi 13y ago
        Yes. Yes I would. More to the point: If the tables were turned and it had been a pro-gay marriage CEO in a conservative company, we'd all be bitching and moaning about corporate culture suppressing the dissenting opinion. Why aren't we doing so when we don't agree with the dissenting opinion? Mozilla's mission has nothing to do with gay rights, it's all about what the web should look like. Eich's opinion on gay marriage is immaterial to his work as CEO. Now, it just so happen that there's a far few queer and ally Mozillians. If Eich's personal opinion were to extend into company policy about those people (or, in general, if his governance were to massively disagree with the company culture in any way), I'd question his fitness to lead. But coming from a company built on inclusiveness and tolerance, the shitstorm they're making about a member's personal opinions seems quite hypocritical, to be completely honest.
- zimpenfish 13y ago
  There's a reasonable difference between being the CTO (responsible for technical direction) and CEO (responsible for all direction including, presumably, inclusivity of staff) though.
  - moron4hire 13y ago
    I'm presuming Eich identifies as religious, some form of Christian to guess. Regardless, if he isn't, it doesn't matter to the principle. Any CEO who is has to "check at the door" his views on the religions of the world to work as the CEO at Mozilla, where there are undoubtedly many Muslims, Jews, and Athiests (not to exclude any religions, just naming the top four). If we can't expect Eich to leave his views about gay marriage behind, then how can we expect any CEO of any religion to be respectful of his employees and customers of differing religion? No, I do not recognize your assertion that there is a "reasonable" difference.
    - zimpenfish 13y ago
      If you don't see the difference between being CTO and being CEO, we have a fundamental baseline disagreement that we're not going to resolve by arguing about the rest of it. I think promoting him was a mistake; you don't. Such is life.
      - moron4hire 13y ago
        It's not like we're talking about David Green at Hobby Lobby here. In any of these discussions I've read, nobody has suggested that Eich has worked to mold Mozilla into his personal political or religious vision. Green--on the other hand--is actively trying to tell his employees how to use their compensation given for the work they've done for him. Would Green reach into his employee's pockets and take out greenbacks if he knew they were being used to buy condoms and booze? The proposition is more likely than Eich discriminating against gays in his role at Mozilla. If Eich has actively discriminated against employees at Mozilla, then yeah, he needs to be kicked out. Show me where that has happened. But what he does in his private life (that he didn't advertise, which makes this an excellent case study in the need for privacy-even-for-legal-activities) has no bearing.

SEMW 13y ago

To devil's advocate on behalf of okcupid: I don't see that there's any moral inconsistency about being happy to use something made by someone you consider problematic, while still not wanting that person to have an ongoing position of power. Richard Wagner was an anti-semite. I see nothing contradictory about enjoying his music while also thinking that (if he was still alive) he shouldn't run an organisation of musicians which has Jewish members. (To be clear: I'm not saying I necessarily hold that position wrt Eich, just that contrary to the parent's implication, it isn't a hypocritical position to hold).

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
vezzy-fnord 13y ago
Except they're explicitly urging for Firefox to be boycotted, so they certainly have a bone to pick.