7 ms·

I just recently recommended Win7 to my dad over Win8/8.1. I tried getting him to switch to Ubuntu but that just wasn't going to happen. I've been testing our w

I just recently recommended Win7 to my dad over Win8/8.1. I tried getting him to switch to Ubuntu but that just wasn't going to happen. I've been testing our web apps in Windows 7/8 a lot and I can say that getting people to convert to Win8 is going to be a serious uphill battle for Microsoft. The hidden menu, missing start button, and general hodge-podgery of switching between tablet/desktop mode had me ripping my hair out in frustration. I spent 15 minutes trying to figure out how to check my wireless network config in Windows 8 before I got trapped in the white settings screen with no way out. Apparently you have to hover to the top right of the screen for a second to bring up that hidden charms menu even from within the settings screen. Why there's no visible "close" button, and why [ESC] didn't take me out I'll never know but it seems like no one even used Win8 before they released it.

derefr 13y ago
> Why there's no visible "close" button, and why [ESC] didn't take me out W8 makes a lot more sense, to me, if you think of Metro applications as each running fullscreen in their own ephemeral virtual desktops. You don't "minimize" a virtual desktop; you switch away from it. You don't "close" a virtual desktop; you quit the program running on it, and it ceases to exist. (In other words, the solution in W8.0 is either "press Alt+F4 to quit the application", or "throw-your-mouse-toward/swipe-away-from at the top-left corner to open the virtual-desktop switcher.") It's exactly the same as fullscreen app behavior in OSX, or Gnome; the only difference is that your "native" windowed apps are all limited to living on a single virtual desktop, rather than the user being able to spread them out across several. In the upcoming 8.1.1 update (or whatever it's called), there'll be an additional UX: throw-your-mouse-toward/swipe-away-from the top of a virtual desktop, and you'll get a sort of title-bar with caption buttons for the virtual desktop itself. That's actually kind of brilliantly-obvious, once you see it, and I hope that idea spreads to every OS.
- mikegioia 13y ago
  That may be nice and all, but I'm not on a tablet, I'm on a desktop. I know I'm speaking for myself, but I rarely like fullscreen applications in a desktop setting. It's why you infrequently see people using fullscreen mode in their browser unless they're watching videos. The problem I have is that it feels like Microsoft is forcing me into that virtual desktop environment when I just want a regular desktop environment; and it's that aspect that I feel will turn people to Win7.
  - derefr 13y ago
    From what has been shown in the previews, I think it's very likely that in W8.2, Metro apps will: 1. be able to be "restored" from fullscreen to become regular windows, and 2. obey a preference in the Control Panel to always start them as windows rather than fullscreen. I expect people will forget almost all of their objections to W8 after that.
    - bunderbunder 13y ago
      This is the thing I had been hoping for more than anything else for Windows 8.1. And yeah, I will forget all my objections to Win8 after that, because when you get down to it that's really my only objection to Win8. I've got no real complaint with Metro apps, as such. What I've got a complaint with is that they don't behave like every Windows application I've used since approximately 1990. Not because there's anything broken about the existing desktop PC interaction model that Microsoft had been incrementally refining for decades, mind you. No, it's really just that Microsoft : Captain Ahab :: iDevices : white whale.
  - TillE 13y ago
    Fullscreen apps work great on a Macbook, and you only need to know two simple trackpad gestures: three fingers side to side, and three fingers up. And yes, you can break out of it by mashing ESC. It's an interface clearly designed for a multi-touch trackpad, and it's a joy to use. It makes a 13" laptop screen feel a lot less cramped. Contrast to Win8 which is an overcomplicated mess, filled with interface decisions that are suboptimal for a mouse or trackpad interface.
    - clauretano 13y ago
      Especially with the low screen resolution of the 11" MacBook Air, full-screen mode becomes essential. On a 27" 1440p display, not so much. I personally use full screen mode for iTunes (mainly so that iTunes is always a quick multi-swipe away) but not for anything else. I think the animations on Mac OS make full screen mode great. Slide some fingers on the trackpad and you switch to the next full screen app or virtual desktop. On Win8 it's a jarring zoom in zoom out animation, without any ability to 'peek', at least using a mouse/keyboard interface on a desktop.
- bambax 13y ago
  But why would you want apps running fullscreen? Why would you want that at the exclusion of every other option?? Sure, we're often fullscreen, but for many tasks being able to have multiple windows (hint!) on the screen is really helpful. W8 takes this away and doesn't give anything in return.
  - bane 13y ago
    I'm guessing you're probably on OS X where multiple windows per app is normal. But it's odd in Windows and most apps are designed not to have lots of little windows floating all over the place. As a result, most people on Windows maximize their applications. It's not quite full-screening, and Microsoft made a mistake with that, but it is a notable different in the two environments.
- Zarel 13y ago
  Well, the main difference between OS X's full-screen mode and Windows 8's Metro apps are that OS X's full-screen mode is opt-in. You can't get to it except by pressing the full-screen button in the top right of the window, which hints that leaving full-screen mode is also in the top right. In addition, the Dock and the menubar are visible in normal usage, hinting that hovering on their corresponding screen edges will make them reappear (with a visible leave-full-screen button on the menubar). In contrast, the Windows taskbar can't be pulled up by hovering over the bottom; there's no "switch to windowed mode" button at all; and Metro uses screen corners rather than screen edges - which are less discoverable, and with the exception of the Start button in 8.1, the screen corner menus in question aren't visible in normal usage. There's also a difference in terms of the keyboard shortcuts: in OS X, Cmd+W is "close tab/window" and Cmd+Q is "quit application", and they're relatively commonly used (and easy to use). In Windows, Alt+F4 is much less user-friendly (most laptop keyboards these days don't even let you use F4 without Fn), as evidenced by the fact that users keep on trying to use Esc and being frustrated when it doesn't work.
  - bane 13y ago
    In Windows, Alt+F4 is close application and Ctrl+F4 is close tab. It's been that way for decades (granted most users don't know Ctrl+F4, but Alt+F4 is almost as well known as alt+tab).
- brudgers 13y ago
  Windows 8.1 makes even more sense since Metro apps can run side by side with a desktop full of windows on the same screen at the same time...you could already do this with dual monitors in Windows 8. Metro is not an either or interface and the learning curve is really pretty shallow if anything other than trial and error is used.
colmvp 13y ago
Why do people even need to use Start button? I use Alfred on my Mac and it's significantly faster to type the name of the application instead of navigating the Start Menu. Granted, I haven't used Windows since XP.
- jonathansizz 13y ago
  Why not have a hierarchical menu and a search box? Sometimes I can't remember the name of a program I haven't used in a while, so I click around until I find it. I really like the way KDE does things: favourites list with search box above, with an applications list a click away.
- bane 13y ago
  Do you always remember the name of all your programs so you can type them?
- nightski 13y ago
  Because the start button does the same thing as Alfred on Win7/8?
nhebb 13y ago
After a year of using Win 8, it still takes me a few tries to get the charms menu to display (it pops up all the time when I don't want it to). I hook a 2nd monitor to my laptop a lot, and trying to get the mouse in that "charm bar sweet spot" without crossing over to monitor 2 is a complete pain. I was really hoping that 8.1 would fix these usability issues, but it doesn't seem like Microsoft was really listening to users' complaints.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
overgard 13y ago
I've been using Windows 8 and I'm pretty happy with it, but the first thing I did when I installed it was install Start 8 and configured the system to login directly to the desktop, and hide all the "metro" apps from the start menu and disabled all the stupid charm stuff. (Which is pretty simple, it took about 15 minutes, although granted it took some third party software). I haven't even seen metro in months. Once you do that, it's basically a faster version of windows 7. I think the improvements to the core os and the desktop are worth the upgrade, but jesus, metro is stupid on anything but a tablet.
- epsylon 13y ago
  Is it really faster than Windows 7? I haven't found any serious benchmarks on the subject.
  - overgard 13y ago
    Here's one: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2406668,00.asp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2406668,00.asp (Scroll down a bit for the numbers) The boot time is definitely faster. I think removing aeroglass also helped a bit with energy consumption and window rendering speed, although I have to admit I miss it. They also updated a few small things that aren't a big deal but are kind of nice (the file copy dialog is WAY better).
drdeadringer 13y ago
I commend you for trying the switch to Linux :D
brudgers 13y ago
missing start button I continue to be surprised that HN consistently upvotes comments with this criticism of Windows 8. The start button has been present since Windows 8.1 was released last October. The analogy would be criticizing Ubunto for a feater missing from 12.04. Having largely transitioned from Windows to Linux in the past few months, I'd never have made it if I abandoned Linux every time I encountered fifteen minutes of configuration WTF? and compared to figuring out how to remove the installation media from yum's list of repositories learning the charms bar [before the start button and Windows 8.1] was a piece of cake. Then again, I watched the Windows 8 tutorials.
- doktrin 13y ago
  Most HN contributors wouldn't have trouble using Windows 8. True and fair. However, the context of the parent comment was recommending an OS for his (presumably less tech savvy) parents. I couldn't agree more in this regard. I recommend either OSX or Windows 7 to anyone in the family who asks. The missing start menu may not be a current issue, but it's a fair example of what's wrong with Windows 8 from a UX perspective. That is to say - abandoning almost everything that is familiar about the Windows UX in favor of a new and largely unproven desktop interface. On top of it all, it's a touch-centric interface that feels (to many people, at least) out of place in a desktop. I personally can't imagine jabbing at my desktop monitor with my finger. What works on a tablet in my lap becomes really awkward when the screen is a full arms length from my face. If the monitor in question isn't a touchscreen, then what's left is a really unfortunate mess that most less tech-savvy users are going to have a tough time getting rid of.
  - tonyedgecombe 13y ago
    Since upgrading to 8.1 I never see the touch interface, boot straight to the desktop (which will soon be the default on no touch devices) and it just isn't an issue.

derefr 13y ago

> Why there's no visible "close" button, and why [ESC] didn't take me out W8 makes a lot more sense, to me, if you think of Metro applications as each running fullscreen in their own ephemeral virtual desktops. You don't "minimize" a virtual desktop; you switch away from it. You don't "close" a virtual desktop; you quit the program running on it, and it ceases to exist. (In other words, the solution in W8.0 is either "press Alt+F4 to quit the application", or "throw-your-mouse-toward/swipe-away-from at the top-left corner to open the virtual-desktop switcher.") It's exactly the same as fullscreen app behavior in OSX, or Gnome; the only difference is that your "native" windowed apps are all limited to living on a single virtual desktop, rather than the user being able to spread them out across several. In the upcoming 8.1.1 update (or whatever it's called), there'll be an additional UX: throw-your-mouse-toward/swipe-away-from the top of a virtual desktop, and you'll get a sort of title-bar with caption buttons for the virtual desktop itself. That's actually kind of brilliantly-obvious, once you see it, and I hope that idea spreads to every OS.

mikegioia 13y ago
That may be nice and all, but I'm not on a tablet, I'm on a desktop. I know I'm speaking for myself, but I rarely like fullscreen applications in a desktop setting. It's why you infrequently see people using fullscreen mode in their browser unless they're watching videos. The problem I have is that it feels like Microsoft is forcing me into that virtual desktop environment when I just want a regular desktop environment; and it's that aspect that I feel will turn people to Win7.
- derefr 13y ago
  From what has been shown in the previews, I think it's very likely that in W8.2, Metro apps will: 1. be able to be "restored" from fullscreen to become regular windows, and 2. obey a preference in the Control Panel to always start them as windows rather than fullscreen. I expect people will forget almost all of their objections to W8 after that.
  - bunderbunder 13y ago
    This is the thing I had been hoping for more than anything else for Windows 8.1. And yeah, I will forget all my objections to Win8 after that, because when you get down to it that's really my only objection to Win8. I've got no real complaint with Metro apps, as such. What I've got a complaint with is that they don't behave like every Windows application I've used since approximately 1990. Not because there's anything broken about the existing desktop PC interaction model that Microsoft had been incrementally refining for decades, mind you. No, it's really just that Microsoft : Captain Ahab :: iDevices : white whale.
- TillE 13y ago
  Fullscreen apps work great on a Macbook, and you only need to know two simple trackpad gestures: three fingers side to side, and three fingers up. And yes, you can break out of it by mashing ESC. It's an interface clearly designed for a multi-touch trackpad, and it's a joy to use. It makes a 13" laptop screen feel a lot less cramped. Contrast to Win8 which is an overcomplicated mess, filled with interface decisions that are suboptimal for a mouse or trackpad interface.
  - clauretano 13y ago
    Especially with the low screen resolution of the 11" MacBook Air, full-screen mode becomes essential. On a 27" 1440p display, not so much. I personally use full screen mode for iTunes (mainly so that iTunes is always a quick multi-swipe away) but not for anything else. I think the animations on Mac OS make full screen mode great. Slide some fingers on the trackpad and you switch to the next full screen app or virtual desktop. On Win8 it's a jarring zoom in zoom out animation, without any ability to 'peek', at least using a mouse/keyboard interface on a desktop.
bambax 13y ago
But why would you want apps running fullscreen? Why would you want that at the exclusion of every other option?? Sure, we're often fullscreen, but for many tasks being able to have multiple windows (hint!) on the screen is really helpful. W8 takes this away and doesn't give anything in return.
- bane 13y ago
  I'm guessing you're probably on OS X where multiple windows per app is normal. But it's odd in Windows and most apps are designed not to have lots of little windows floating all over the place. As a result, most people on Windows maximize their applications. It's not quite full-screening, and Microsoft made a mistake with that, but it is a notable different in the two environments.
Zarel 13y ago
Well, the main difference between OS X's full-screen mode and Windows 8's Metro apps are that OS X's full-screen mode is opt-in. You can't get to it except by pressing the full-screen button in the top right of the window, which hints that leaving full-screen mode is also in the top right. In addition, the Dock and the menubar are visible in normal usage, hinting that hovering on their corresponding screen edges will make them reappear (with a visible leave-full-screen button on the menubar). In contrast, the Windows taskbar can't be pulled up by hovering over the bottom; there's no "switch to windowed mode" button at all; and Metro uses screen corners rather than screen edges - which are less discoverable, and with the exception of the Start button in 8.1, the screen corner menus in question aren't visible in normal usage. There's also a difference in terms of the keyboard shortcuts: in OS X, Cmd+W is "close tab/window" and Cmd+Q is "quit application", and they're relatively commonly used (and easy to use). In Windows, Alt+F4 is much less user-friendly (most laptop keyboards these days don't even let you use F4 without Fn), as evidenced by the fact that users keep on trying to use Esc and being frustrated when it doesn't work.
- bane 13y ago
  In Windows, Alt+F4 is close application and Ctrl+F4 is close tab. It's been that way for decades (granted most users don't know Ctrl+F4, but Alt+F4 is almost as well known as alt+tab).
brudgers 13y ago
Windows 8.1 makes even more sense since Metro apps can run side by side with a desktop full of windows on the same screen at the same time...you could already do this with dual monitors in Windows 8. Metro is not an either or interface and the learning curve is really pretty shallow if anything other than trial and error is used.

colmvp 13y ago

Why do people even need to use Start button? I use Alfred on my Mac and it's significantly faster to type the name of the application instead of navigating the Start Menu. Granted, I haven't used Windows since XP.

jonathansizz 13y ago
Why not have a hierarchical menu and a search box? Sometimes I can't remember the name of a program I haven't used in a while, so I click around until I find it. I really like the way KDE does things: favourites list with search box above, with an applications list a click away.
bane 13y ago
Do you always remember the name of all your programs so you can type them?
nightski 13y ago
Because the start button does the same thing as Alfred on Win7/8?

nhebb 13y ago

After a year of using Win 8, it still takes me a few tries to get the charms menu to display (it pops up all the time when I don't want it to). I hook a 2nd monitor to my laptop a lot, and trying to get the mouse in that "charm bar sweet spot" without crossing over to monitor 2 is a complete pain. I was really hoping that 8.1 would fix these usability issues, but it doesn't seem like Microsoft was really listening to users' complaints.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

overgard 13y ago

I've been using Windows 8 and I'm pretty happy with it, but the first thing I did when I installed it was install Start 8 and configured the system to login directly to the desktop, and hide all the "metro" apps from the start menu and disabled all the stupid charm stuff. (Which is pretty simple, it took about 15 minutes, although granted it took some third party software). I haven't even seen metro in months. Once you do that, it's basically a faster version of windows 7. I think the improvements to the core os and the desktop are worth the upgrade, but jesus, metro is stupid on anything but a tablet.

epsylon 13y ago
Is it really faster than Windows 7? I haven't found any serious benchmarks on the subject.
- overgard 13y ago
  Here's one: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2406668,00.asp http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2406668,00.asp (Scroll down a bit for the numbers) The boot time is definitely faster. I think removing aeroglass also helped a bit with energy consumption and window rendering speed, although I have to admit I miss it. They also updated a few small things that aren't a big deal but are kind of nice (the file copy dialog is WAY better).

drdeadringer 13y ago

I commend you for trying the switch to Linux :D

brudgers 13y ago

missing start button I continue to be surprised that HN consistently upvotes comments with this criticism of Windows 8. The start button has been present since Windows 8.1 was released last October. The analogy would be criticizing Ubunto for a feater missing from 12.04. Having largely transitioned from Windows to Linux in the past few months, I'd never have made it if I abandoned Linux every time I encountered fifteen minutes of configuration WTF? and compared to figuring out how to remove the installation media from yum's list of repositories learning the charms bar [before the start button and Windows 8.1] was a piece of cake. Then again, I watched the Windows 8 tutorials.

doktrin 13y ago
Most HN contributors wouldn't have trouble using Windows 8. True and fair. However, the context of the parent comment was recommending an OS for his (presumably less tech savvy) parents. I couldn't agree more in this regard. I recommend either OSX or Windows 7 to anyone in the family who asks. The missing start menu may not be a current issue, but it's a fair example of what's wrong with Windows 8 from a UX perspective. That is to say - abandoning almost everything that is familiar about the Windows UX in favor of a new and largely unproven desktop interface. On top of it all, it's a touch-centric interface that feels (to many people, at least) out of place in a desktop. I personally can't imagine jabbing at my desktop monitor with my finger. What works on a tablet in my lap becomes really awkward when the screen is a full arms length from my face. If the monitor in question isn't a touchscreen, then what's left is a really unfortunate mess that most less tech-savvy users are going to have a tough time getting rid of.
- tonyedgecombe 13y ago
  Since upgrading to 8.1 I never see the touch interface, boot straight to the desktop (which will soon be the default on no touch devices) and it just isn't an issue.