5 ms·

I'll be transparent and say: I think it's crazy you expect developers to take a 45 day risk/trial period, in order to work at the company. I'm an experienced d

by lolwutf 13y ago

I'll be transparent and say: I think it's crazy you expect developers to take a 45 day risk/trial period, in order to work at the company. I'm an experienced dev (3+ years of wholesome experience + a solid work portfolio) and I could even deal with the rather significant pay cut I'd be taking... but a pay cut + risking not having employment, when I'm already settled in a current job? No thanks. But good luck.

ch4s3 13y ago
Yeah really. This is a particular strain of bullshit that I've been hearing about a lot recently. It flows from the hire slow fire fast mantra of "lean startups." It feels and sounds like the cheapening of talent/expertise and people. Frankly I think treating people like reality show contestants even once they're in the door is bottom of the barrel behavior.
- lolwutf 13y ago
  Ding ding ding! We have a winner! I understand the problem for Buffer, but this isn't the solution. I've heard of companies who offer people to consult on weekends for a predetermined total number of hours to accomplish much the same outcome. Annoying, but I'll play ball. ...but really. I seriously doubt any high-end dev talent is willing to take such risks. And if you think this hiring strategy would be successful in attracting high-end dev talent that really cares about Buffer, well you haven't examined the hiring market lately and are likely high off your own supply.
  - ch4s3 13y ago
    well, I'm just feeling a bit burned after a presentation I sat through the other week on the topic.
  - nollidge 13y ago
    You're on a trial at every single company anyway, they just aren't as up front about it.
  - WWLink 13y ago
    I don't know what's worse, the 45 day trial or the "congratulations! You've jumped through 3 fire hoops! Now you have the chance to come spend a full day being interviewed by 10 different people!" stuff. A lot of companies have probation periods though.
huhtenberg 13y ago
> I'm an experienced dev (3+ years ... This is still "barely out of school, hardly knows what he's doing" stage :) Edit - downvote me all you want, but if you are to show up on the interview and declare that you are in an "experienced dev (with 3+ years)", the interview will conclude quickly. It's not that you have just three years of experience, it's the fact that you think it's a lot. It's not. This makes you cocky and cockiness can be costly, especially in an otherwise coherent team.
- lolwutf 13y ago
  Sure, whatever. Have it. ...but that still doesn't negate the fact that expecting anyone worth their salt to give up a current level of security for a 45 day gamble with Buffer is a smart hiring strategy.
- thoughtpalette 13y ago
  I'd say 3 years at a certain company can gain you loads of experience rather than 8 years at a different one. Context is key here as well.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  Experience is relative. Compared to a 15+ year veteran sure, this guy's but a baby in the crib. But he's still a baby in the crib with recruiters beating down his door left, right, and center, none of whom are expecting him to quit his job for a vague, conditional offer of employment. This isn't about who deserves what, this is about the market conditions. Right now the market conditions are such that even devs with ~3 years of experience are highly sought after, with likely multiple recruiter contacts per day if they are even half decent at advertising their abilities. This isn't about whether or not what Buffer expects is "wrong" (for whatever ephemeral notion of right and wrong), it's about what Buffer can get away with. In the current market they most certainly cannot get away with it.
  - vonmoltke 13y ago
    Define "half decent at advertising their abilities". I am going on 12 years hardware and software experience, and aside from shitty spam recruiters I have never had anyone beatig down my door.
etherealG 13y ago
where did you find this info?
- lolwutf 13y ago
  See footnote at this: http://open.bufferapp.com/two-more-happiness-heroes-join-the-buffer-team-mary-and-adam/ http://open.bufferapp.com/two-more-happiness-heroes-join-the...
emperorcezar 13y ago
I have to agree. What I think is a big deal here is for developers with families. 45 days is 45 days without health insurance and other important benefits. There is COBRA, but that's two months of paying that bill. For most family plans that's 3 - 4k in expense. That said, it really depends how much they are paying the prospective employee while contracting. If it's enough to make up for that then it might be worth the risk to some people.
- wyclif 13y ago
  What's that you say? Developers with families and (gasp) kids? You mean developers older than 22, with actual lives and responsibilities outside of work? Inconceivable! I will say this, though— I give them credit for being open about what they really want. A lot of companies don't do that.
  - emperorcezar 13y ago
    Ha. Sometimes feels like that. The transparency make them one of the better companies out there. Though I'm surprised this trial period isn't mentioned in their job listings in some way.
baddox 13y ago
Isn't the "45 day trial" just a disclosure of a reality that is always the case? Unless you're going to get an actual contract, which as far as I know is rare for this kind of work, you're always technically on a "trial," even after years at the company.

by lolwutf 13y ago

ch4s3 13y ago

Yeah really. This is a particular strain of bullshit that I've been hearing about a lot recently. It flows from the hire slow fire fast mantra of "lean startups." It feels and sounds like the cheapening of talent/expertise and people. Frankly I think treating people like reality show contestants even once they're in the door is bottom of the barrel behavior.

lolwutf 13y ago
Ding ding ding! We have a winner! I understand the problem for Buffer, but this isn't the solution. I've heard of companies who offer people to consult on weekends for a predetermined total number of hours to accomplish much the same outcome. Annoying, but I'll play ball. ...but really. I seriously doubt any high-end dev talent is willing to take such risks. And if you think this hiring strategy would be successful in attracting high-end dev talent that really cares about Buffer, well you haven't examined the hiring market lately and are likely high off your own supply.
- ch4s3 13y ago
  well, I'm just feeling a bit burned after a presentation I sat through the other week on the topic.
- nollidge 13y ago
  You're on a trial at every single company anyway, they just aren't as up front about it.
- WWLink 13y ago
  I don't know what's worse, the 45 day trial or the "congratulations! You've jumped through 3 fire hoops! Now you have the chance to come spend a full day being interviewed by 10 different people!" stuff. A lot of companies have probation periods though.

huhtenberg 13y ago

> I'm an experienced dev (3+ years ... This is still "barely out of school, hardly knows what he's doing" stage :) Edit - downvote me all you want, but if you are to show up on the interview and declare that you are in an "experienced dev (with 3+ years)", the interview will conclude quickly. It's not that you have just three years of experience, it's the fact that you think it's a lot. It's not. This makes you cocky and cockiness can be costly, especially in an otherwise coherent team.

lolwutf 13y ago
Sure, whatever. Have it. ...but that still doesn't negate the fact that expecting anyone worth their salt to give up a current level of security for a 45 day gamble with Buffer is a smart hiring strategy.
thoughtpalette 13y ago
I'd say 3 years at a certain company can gain you loads of experience rather than 8 years at a different one. Context is key here as well.
potatolicious 13y ago
Experience is relative. Compared to a 15+ year veteran sure, this guy's but a baby in the crib. But he's still a baby in the crib with recruiters beating down his door left, right, and center, none of whom are expecting him to quit his job for a vague, conditional offer of employment. This isn't about who deserves what, this is about the market conditions. Right now the market conditions are such that even devs with ~3 years of experience are highly sought after, with likely multiple recruiter contacts per day if they are even half decent at advertising their abilities. This isn't about whether or not what Buffer expects is "wrong" (for whatever ephemeral notion of right and wrong), it's about what Buffer can get away with. In the current market they most certainly cannot get away with it.
- vonmoltke 13y ago
  Define "half decent at advertising their abilities". I am going on 12 years hardware and software experience, and aside from shitty spam recruiters I have never had anyone beatig down my door.

etherealG 13y ago

where did you find this info?

lolwutf 13y ago
See footnote at this: http://open.bufferapp.com/two-more-happiness-heroes-join-the-buffer-team-mary-and-adam/ http://open.bufferapp.com/two-more-happiness-heroes-join-the...

emperorcezar 13y ago

I have to agree. What I think is a big deal here is for developers with families. 45 days is 45 days without health insurance and other important benefits. There is COBRA, but that's two months of paying that bill. For most family plans that's 3 - 4k in expense. That said, it really depends how much they are paying the prospective employee while contracting. If it's enough to make up for that then it might be worth the risk to some people.

wyclif 13y ago
What's that you say? Developers with families and (gasp) kids? You mean developers older than 22, with actual lives and responsibilities outside of work? Inconceivable! I will say this, though— I give them credit for being open about what they really want. A lot of companies don't do that.
- emperorcezar 13y ago
  Ha. Sometimes feels like that. The transparency make them one of the better companies out there. Though I'm surprised this trial period isn't mentioned in their job listings in some way.

baddox 13y ago

Isn't the "45 day trial" just a disclosure of a reality that is always the case? Unless you're going to get an actual contract, which as far as I know is rare for this kind of work, you're always technically on a "trial," even after years at the company.