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Most people don't realise that Russia is a brutal petro-chemical dictatorship in economical decline which is clamping down hard on human rights, freedom of the

by mtrimpe 13y ago

Most people don't realise that Russia is a brutal petro-chemical dictatorship in economical decline which is clamping down hard on human rights, freedom of the press and radicalising its population through propaganda. I've been following the Crimea conflict very closely (which almost certainly is also what caused Pavel's departure) and the seriousness of the situation is heavily underestimated by the world. The Russian economy is heavily dependent on gas exports, and both income from - and production of gas is declining. A small elite has been massively siphoning off wealth from those natural resources and is desperate to stay in control. Given the situation they (rightfully) fear being overthrown and to prevent that they've started 'restoring Russia to it's former glory,' appealing to traditional family values by introducing anti-gay laws, introducing laws against protesting, laws against criticising Russia, shutting down independent media and distributing propaganda from the remaining station which gets ever more removed from reality by the day. It is in that context that the VKontakte departure must be seen, and therefore it's difficult to make direct comparisons between Russia and the US: they are truly orders of magnitude apart right now. P.S. It is important to keep in mind that you could also argue that something similar happened in the US with the NSA scandals but in the US none of the CEOs chose to resign.

insuffi 13y ago
The seriousness of the conflict depends on where you get your information, sadly. The situation geopolitically seems pretty simple, in broad strokes. Too bad there's unfounded scaremongering on both sides(or should I say 3 or 4 sides).
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  It more seems that the seriousness of the conflict depends on whether you see this as an isolated incident (which just happens to be the worst violation of territorial integrity in Europe since WWII) or as yet another indicator that the exact same social dynamics that led us to WWII in the first place are intensifying significantly. I'm curious as to what your take on this is then though ...
  - camus2 13y ago
    which just happens to be the worst violation of territorial integrity in Europe since WWII sure,but it's not like Kosovo ever happened... oh wait,NATO was on board with this...
    - mtrimpe 13y ago
      In Kosovo there was active, widespread genocide going on. Absolutely nothing of such kind was happening in Crimea. Additionally the Kosovo constitution offered room for secession and it's secession was consequently recognized by the vast majority of the international community. The votes on the UN council as to the legality of Russia's actions [1] say enough, but Huffinton Post wrote a fairly comprehensive article [2] about the topic. P.S. If you plan to link to the RT counter-piece [3] just let me know and I'll list all the factual inaccuracies for you. [1] http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ukraine-vote.jpg http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/u... [2] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/crimea-is-not-kosovo_b_4936365.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/crimea-is-not... [3] http://rt.com/news/kosovo-crimea-referendum-recognition-441/ http://rt.com/news/kosovo-crimea-referendum-recognition-441/
      - vasac 13y ago
        Lies, lies, lies... In Kosovo there wasn't widespread genocide, especially not before NATO started dropping bombs - by far biggest atrocities (not genocide) started after March 24, 1999. Also you conveniently forgot those guys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#Status_as_a_terrorist_group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#Status_a... - local Russians in Crimea didn't pull anything remotely similar and I guess that they could if they wanted to provoke conflict. And if you plan to put some more lies about Kosovo I'll be glad to educate you more.
        selimthegrim 13y ago
        Normally the day I side with Serbian nationalists is a cold day in hell, but vasac is right. This is the end result of one of the worst kludges of the 1974 SFRY constitution, a master class document in doublespeak and not actually resolving issues between parties. Case in point: Hungarians and Albanians were "nationalities", not "nations". Why couldn't they be "nations"? Because they "already had one". Way to make your minorities feel disenfranchised at one fell swoop.
johnnydoebk 13y ago
>> I've been following the Crimea conflict very closely (which almost certainly is also what caused Pavel's departure) Reference is needed.
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  It says it in the article. Navalny was making statements condemning the Crimea annexation and giving advice on how best to apply economic sanction to the Kremlin-elite surrounding Putin. After the US followed his advice Navalny even tweeted that he was packing his bags for jail because "someone was going to have to pay for [those sanctions]".
  - johnnydoebk 13y ago
    News about Pavel's departure appeared long before the conflict you're talking about. So these two events are not connected.
    - mtrimpe 13y ago
      News about Pavel's departure started appearing ever since the hostile takeover well over a year ago. His actual departure was today which makes it very much possible, if not likely, that it was connected to recent events which undoubtedly resulted in additional pressure against his ideologies.
      - noteworthy 13y ago
        His list of reasons has been building up for years. Russia in 2012 passed a law allowing censorship of 'pirate websites' and has been heavily abused. Vk has been making licensing deals with Sony and other labels. Pavel is a Libertarian and is against making the website 'corporate' (like facebook, motivated by money not freedom). Both the Ukraine, arguments with shareholders and copyright pressure are recent. Putting them together he probably saw a restricted future with VK and now he has Telegram to fallback on, he now sees it an opportunity to quit. However, Telegram has stated it will never charge or have ads, so my theory is he will be making more websites in the future, hopefully he will make websites which embrace his Libertarian ideals.
myth_drannon 13y ago
replace "Russia" with "US" and "petro-chemical" with "military-industrial complex" or "financial" and your whole comment still makes sense as well
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  Except that the US isn't in a steep decline. The US doesn't start invasions and pretends it's someone else's military. The US doesn't cancel leases for pro-Snowden news outlets. The US doesn't send protesters against election-fraud away for 5 years. The US doesn't introduce laws making it illegal to support gays in public. The US doesn't forcefully remove protesters against a potential war at first sight; even if they're just raising white protest flags. The dynamics might be similar, if not universal, but the order of magnitude is truly different.
  - myth_drannon 13y ago
    Actually all you described US does it as well. It's just Russian elites are less sophisticated and are more brutish. The process you see in Russia now, was done many years ago in US. For example why would you cancel leases of news outlets if you have complete and absolute control on MSM? Behind all that gold and glitter is the same nastiness and hate for the common man.
  - pkinsky 13y ago
    >The US doesn't start invasions and pretends it's someone else's military. Drone strikes come to mind. Didn't the US claim that bombings in Yemen where the work of the local government? That said, the order of magnitude is indeed different.
    - smsm42 13y ago
      US didn't occupy Yemen and claim it's "local self-defense forces" and then rushed through a fake referendum to make Yemen part of the US, last time I checked. So I'm not sure what is here to compare. Each major country has intelligence and clandestine operations which are not publicly acknowledged, but it's different between cloak-and-dagger stuff and occupying a part of neighboring country and trying to present it as if they did it to themselves.
camus2 13y ago
You mister read that : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare and then do more search on the internet about how USA are basically forcing everybody to buy oil in $$. At least russia doesnt force other nations to trade gaz in rubs. So yeah,russia is evil , but USA are even more evil. EDIT: downvote me all you want it's not just a conspiracy theory,that's a fact,but since we are on a pro american board, i did not expect anything else but downvotes. There is a reason why USA invaded Irak or Libya,and it had nothing to do with promoting democracry. It was about the fear of USA seeing Iraki and Libyan leaders trade their oil in something else than dollars. And when the world revolts against this made up,military backed dollar domination, USA will fail hard. Because the dollar is backed by nothing but fear.
- skolos 13y ago
  The article refers to "petrodollar warfare hypothesis". It doesn't provide any proof. In particular it doesn't prove any of the "forcing" that you refer to.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - chobo 13y ago
      > I dont have to prove anything,do search on the internet if you really want to find out the facts. No one says you "have to" prove anything but if you enter into an Internet argument and then pull this out, do you really expect people to take you seriously?

by mtrimpe 13y ago

insuffi 13y ago

The seriousness of the conflict depends on where you get your information, sadly. The situation geopolitically seems pretty simple, in broad strokes. Too bad there's unfounded scaremongering on both sides(or should I say 3 or 4 sides).

mtrimpe 13y ago
It more seems that the seriousness of the conflict depends on whether you see this as an isolated incident (which just happens to be the worst violation of territorial integrity in Europe since WWII) or as yet another indicator that the exact same social dynamics that led us to WWII in the first place are intensifying significantly. I'm curious as to what your take on this is then though ...
- camus2 13y ago
  which just happens to be the worst violation of territorial integrity in Europe since WWII sure,but it's not like Kosovo ever happened... oh wait,NATO was on board with this...
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    In Kosovo there was active, widespread genocide going on. Absolutely nothing of such kind was happening in Crimea. Additionally the Kosovo constitution offered room for secession and it's secession was consequently recognized by the vast majority of the international community. The votes on the UN council as to the legality of Russia's actions [1] say enough, but Huffinton Post wrote a fairly comprehensive article [2] about the topic. P.S. If you plan to link to the RT counter-piece [3] just let me know and I'll list all the factual inaccuracies for you. [1] http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ukraine-vote.jpg http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/u... [2] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/crimea-is-not-kosovo_b_4936365.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-phillips/crimea-is-not... [3] http://rt.com/news/kosovo-crimea-referendum-recognition-441/ http://rt.com/news/kosovo-crimea-referendum-recognition-441/
    - vasac 13y ago
      Lies, lies, lies... In Kosovo there wasn't widespread genocide, especially not before NATO started dropping bombs - by far biggest atrocities (not genocide) started after March 24, 1999. Also you conveniently forgot those guys http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#Status_as_a_terrorist_group http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Liberation_Army#Status_a... - local Russians in Crimea didn't pull anything remotely similar and I guess that they could if they wanted to provoke conflict. And if you plan to put some more lies about Kosovo I'll be glad to educate you more.
      - selimthegrim 13y ago
        Normally the day I side with Serbian nationalists is a cold day in hell, but vasac is right. This is the end result of one of the worst kludges of the 1974 SFRY constitution, a master class document in doublespeak and not actually resolving issues between parties. Case in point: Hungarians and Albanians were "nationalities", not "nations". Why couldn't they be "nations"? Because they "already had one". Way to make your minorities feel disenfranchised at one fell swoop.

johnnydoebk 13y ago

>> I've been following the Crimea conflict very closely (which almost certainly is also what caused Pavel's departure) Reference is needed.

mtrimpe 13y ago
It says it in the article. Navalny was making statements condemning the Crimea annexation and giving advice on how best to apply economic sanction to the Kremlin-elite surrounding Putin. After the US followed his advice Navalny even tweeted that he was packing his bags for jail because "someone was going to have to pay for [those sanctions]".
- johnnydoebk 13y ago
  News about Pavel's departure appeared long before the conflict you're talking about. So these two events are not connected.
  - mtrimpe 13y ago
    News about Pavel's departure started appearing ever since the hostile takeover well over a year ago. His actual departure was today which makes it very much possible, if not likely, that it was connected to recent events which undoubtedly resulted in additional pressure against his ideologies.
    - noteworthy 13y ago
      His list of reasons has been building up for years. Russia in 2012 passed a law allowing censorship of 'pirate websites' and has been heavily abused. Vk has been making licensing deals with Sony and other labels. Pavel is a Libertarian and is against making the website 'corporate' (like facebook, motivated by money not freedom). Both the Ukraine, arguments with shareholders and copyright pressure are recent. Putting them together he probably saw a restricted future with VK and now he has Telegram to fallback on, he now sees it an opportunity to quit. However, Telegram has stated it will never charge or have ads, so my theory is he will be making more websites in the future, hopefully he will make websites which embrace his Libertarian ideals.

myth_drannon 13y ago

replace "Russia" with "US" and "petro-chemical" with "military-industrial complex" or "financial" and your whole comment still makes sense as well

mtrimpe 13y ago
Except that the US isn't in a steep decline. The US doesn't start invasions and pretends it's someone else's military. The US doesn't cancel leases for pro-Snowden news outlets. The US doesn't send protesters against election-fraud away for 5 years. The US doesn't introduce laws making it illegal to support gays in public. The US doesn't forcefully remove protesters against a potential war at first sight; even if they're just raising white protest flags. The dynamics might be similar, if not universal, but the order of magnitude is truly different.
- myth_drannon 13y ago
  Actually all you described US does it as well. It's just Russian elites are less sophisticated and are more brutish. The process you see in Russia now, was done many years ago in US. For example why would you cancel leases of news outlets if you have complete and absolute control on MSM? Behind all that gold and glitter is the same nastiness and hate for the common man.
- pkinsky 13y ago
  >The US doesn't start invasions and pretends it's someone else's military. Drone strikes come to mind. Didn't the US claim that bombings in Yemen where the work of the local government? That said, the order of magnitude is indeed different.
  - smsm42 13y ago
    US didn't occupy Yemen and claim it's "local self-defense forces" and then rushed through a fake referendum to make Yemen part of the US, last time I checked. So I'm not sure what is here to compare. Each major country has intelligence and clandestine operations which are not publicly acknowledged, but it's different between cloak-and-dagger stuff and occupying a part of neighboring country and trying to present it as if they did it to themselves.

camus2 13y ago

You mister read that : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare and then do more search on the internet about how USA are basically forcing everybody to buy oil in $$. At least russia doesnt force other nations to trade gaz in rubs. So yeah,russia is evil , but USA are even more evil. EDIT: downvote me all you want it's not just a conspiracy theory,that's a fact,but since we are on a pro american board, i did not expect anything else but downvotes. There is a reason why USA invaded Irak or Libya,and it had nothing to do with promoting democracry. It was about the fear of USA seeing Iraki and Libyan leaders trade their oil in something else than dollars. And when the world revolts against this made up,military backed dollar domination, USA will fail hard. Because the dollar is backed by nothing but fear.

skolos 13y ago
The article refers to "petrodollar warfare hypothesis". It doesn't provide any proof. In particular it doesn't prove any of the "forcing" that you refer to.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - chobo 13y ago
    > I dont have to prove anything,do search on the internet if you really want to find out the facts. No one says you "have to" prove anything but if you enter into an Internet argument and then pull this out, do you really expect people to take you seriously?