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That is where we disagree - I don't think of StackOverflow as a reference manual. Admittedly I am mostly a C# developer and Microsoft does a really good job whe

by danbruc 13y ago

That is where we disagree - I don't think of StackOverflow as a reference manual. Admittedly I am mostly a C# developer and Microsoft does a really good job when it comes to documentation, at least in most cases. If you never saw it before and even if you hate Microsoft, have a look at their documentation. Here is the System.IO namespace http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.io.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.io.aspx and the reference manual part is just the tip of the iceberg.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
sanderjd 13y ago
This is actually a really great demonstration of your parent's point. I think the link you posted actually leads naturally to the question "ok, so how do I put all that together to actually open and read a file". Sure, you can figure it out by reading API documentation, and the more times you do it, the easier that becomes, but a resource where somebody has demonstrated how to actually use that API to open and read a file is valuable. There are lots of various "cookbook" books for this sort of thing, but the QA format also works really well for it because it publicizes problems that lots of people have had, not just the authors of a given book. Maybe SO isn't or doesn't want to be that kind of resource, but I think it is one valuable use case.
- danbruc 13y ago
  Find File.ReadAllLines() [1] or whatever fits your needs and scroll down to the example section. Java has similar documentation, too. jQuery documentation has thousands of examples. It's all there, no need to ask. And if you can not figure out how to put together 3, 5 or 10 library or API calls then get a book about the basics of your technology and read and learn it. Asking stuff that is already out there is just wasting the time of other people, time that is better spend answering questions without an existing answer. [1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/s2tte0y1.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/s2tte0y1.aspx
  - genwin 13y ago
    Asking stuff that is already on StackOverflow I agree, otherwise I don't. On SO people vote, and the answers can be edited, so a very good answer among any documentation anywhere is often near the top of the SO question.
    - danbruc 13y ago
      At least in my opinion it is not and it should not be the goal of StackOverflow to duplicate the documentation of programming languages, libraries or what ever - there is just no value in that. It is of course something different if there is no or only bad documentation but this is just not the case for a lot of questions asked. I have absolutely no sympathy for people that are to lazy to look at the documentation and instead make other people do it for them copying or restating the relevant parts on StackOverflow.
      - genwin 13y ago
        I understand your position. Presumably SO wants to maximize its readership. What I've seen is that they allow any programming question, even of trivial nature, as long as it's objective not subjective. I like that and think it's a good way to maximize readership for objective stuff, because I often google for trivial things. For example, Powershell if/else/elseif syntax, if I haven't used Powershell in a while. I just found the syntax on SO within 10 seconds, with an example I can copy/paste/modify. I bet a lot of other developers use SO like that too, and I bet it's largely the reason people put trivial questions on there. My motivation is efficiency. Being efficient can be construed as lazy I guess!
        danbruc 13y ago
        I do the same - if the first search result is on StackOverflow I will of course just look at that. But if the first result is not on StackOverflow I will read whatever is there and not ask a question on StackOverflow unless the answer to my problem is not or hard to find. So in essence I am uncomfortable if people don't try hard enough to find the answer in existing sources. How long hard enough takes obviously depends on the context. For something I am an expert in I can conclude after a few hours that I have to ask. If you for example start learning your first programming language I would expect you to try at least a day, probably even a couple of days to find the solution by reading manuals, tutorials and books before you ask a question.
genwin 13y ago
> Admittedly I am mostly a C# developer and Microsoft does a really good job when it comes to documentation, at least in most cases. I too use StackOverflow as a reference manual. Often the #1 answer is the concise example I'm looking for. MS documentation is a last resort for me.
- danbruc 13y ago
  Why that? I consider the MSDN library one of the best documentation out there.
  - genwin 13y ago
    It's great when you have time to spare, to learn every nuance of a thing. It's worse than alternatives when you quickly want an example to copy/paste, which is usually my case. For instance, compare googling for "c# run sql query msdn" vs. "c# run sql query stackoverflow". The latter has the better example and it's closer to the top.
    - danbruc 13y ago
      From that I assume that you are not a professional developer, right? I never thought about in from that perspective but I think we should actually discourage copying and adopting code. It will probably solve your current problem in shorter time but I am quite confident that really understanding what you and your code are doing will benefit you in the long term way more, for example when you have to fix bugs, make changes or solve a similar problem.
      - genwin 13y ago
        Agreed! Been developing for a looong time. I switch between languages and OS's a lot. Say I'm switching back to Powershell after a hiatus and I can't remember if it's "if (this) {" or "if this {". StackOverflow may be my fastest way to find the answer and also get an if/else/elseif block to copy/paste/modify. Non-trivial code I copy/paste gets understood thoroughly and often heavily modified!

by danbruc 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

sanderjd 13y ago

This is actually a really great demonstration of your parent's point. I think the link you posted actually leads naturally to the question "ok, so how do I put all that together to actually open and read a file". Sure, you can figure it out by reading API documentation, and the more times you do it, the easier that becomes, but a resource where somebody has demonstrated how to actually use that API to open and read a file is valuable. There are lots of various "cookbook" books for this sort of thing, but the QA format also works really well for it because it publicizes problems that lots of people have had, not just the authors of a given book. Maybe SO isn't or doesn't want to be that kind of resource, but I think it is one valuable use case.

danbruc 13y ago
Find File.ReadAllLines() [1] or whatever fits your needs and scroll down to the example section. Java has similar documentation, too. jQuery documentation has thousands of examples. It's all there, no need to ask. And if you can not figure out how to put together 3, 5 or 10 library or API calls then get a book about the basics of your technology and read and learn it. Asking stuff that is already out there is just wasting the time of other people, time that is better spend answering questions without an existing answer. [1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/s2tte0y1.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/s2tte0y1.aspx
- genwin 13y ago
  Asking stuff that is already on StackOverflow I agree, otherwise I don't. On SO people vote, and the answers can be edited, so a very good answer among any documentation anywhere is often near the top of the SO question.
  - danbruc 13y ago
    At least in my opinion it is not and it should not be the goal of StackOverflow to duplicate the documentation of programming languages, libraries or what ever - there is just no value in that. It is of course something different if there is no or only bad documentation but this is just not the case for a lot of questions asked. I have absolutely no sympathy for people that are to lazy to look at the documentation and instead make other people do it for them copying or restating the relevant parts on StackOverflow.
    - genwin 13y ago
      I understand your position. Presumably SO wants to maximize its readership. What I've seen is that they allow any programming question, even of trivial nature, as long as it's objective not subjective. I like that and think it's a good way to maximize readership for objective stuff, because I often google for trivial things. For example, Powershell if/else/elseif syntax, if I haven't used Powershell in a while. I just found the syntax on SO within 10 seconds, with an example I can copy/paste/modify. I bet a lot of other developers use SO like that too, and I bet it's largely the reason people put trivial questions on there. My motivation is efficiency. Being efficient can be construed as lazy I guess!
      - danbruc 13y ago
        I do the same - if the first search result is on StackOverflow I will of course just look at that. But if the first result is not on StackOverflow I will read whatever is there and not ask a question on StackOverflow unless the answer to my problem is not or hard to find. So in essence I am uncomfortable if people don't try hard enough to find the answer in existing sources. How long hard enough takes obviously depends on the context. For something I am an expert in I can conclude after a few hours that I have to ask. If you for example start learning your first programming language I would expect you to try at least a day, probably even a couple of days to find the solution by reading manuals, tutorials and books before you ask a question.

genwin 13y ago

> Admittedly I am mostly a C# developer and Microsoft does a really good job when it comes to documentation, at least in most cases. I too use StackOverflow as a reference manual. Often the #1 answer is the concise example I'm looking for. MS documentation is a last resort for me.

danbruc 13y ago
Why that? I consider the MSDN library one of the best documentation out there.
- genwin 13y ago
  It's great when you have time to spare, to learn every nuance of a thing. It's worse than alternatives when you quickly want an example to copy/paste, which is usually my case. For instance, compare googling for "c# run sql query msdn" vs. "c# run sql query stackoverflow". The latter has the better example and it's closer to the top.
  - danbruc 13y ago
    From that I assume that you are not a professional developer, right? I never thought about in from that perspective but I think we should actually discourage copying and adopting code. It will probably solve your current problem in shorter time but I am quite confident that really understanding what you and your code are doing will benefit you in the long term way more, for example when you have to fix bugs, make changes or solve a similar problem.
    - genwin 13y ago
      Agreed! Been developing for a looong time. I switch between languages and OS's a lot. Say I'm switching back to Powershell after a hiatus and I can't remember if it's "if (this) {" or "if this {". StackOverflow may be my fastest way to find the answer and also get an if/else/elseif block to copy/paste/modify. Non-trivial code I copy/paste gets understood thoroughly and often heavily modified!