6 ms·

It's precisely that line of thinking which has resulted in the most debt-laden, over-educated and under-employed workforce in history. Getting a degree can be

by meritt 13y ago

It's precisely that line of thinking which has resulted in the most debt-laden, over-educated and under-employed workforce in history. Getting a degree can be a good thing, absolutely, but it's by no means a requirement to success.

swalsh 13y ago
I never said it was a requirement, I feel myself successful and I don't have a degree. But the path has definitely been harder than my friends who do have one. So with that, I recommend not taking that path intentionally.
- Infinitesimus 13y ago
  I think u/merrit was actually on your side :P. Saying that the line of thinking by the company is what causes problems
- SixSigma 13y ago
  I'm a University drop out, 20 years of it. It has always been in my mind that I don't have a degree. It has closed doors to me, made me feel inferior in conversation and with the job market getting harder has shut off the job supply and I've got 20 years professional programming experience. The ad says Graduate Degree, that's that, no interesting job for you. I tried to go back to Uni but it was: you dropped out, so no loan for you, you have to pay for the first year yourself (we didn't even have loans the first time round). I have finally done it, this September I start at University once more.
  - tilde_tilde 13y ago
    Congratulations!
    - SixSigma 13y ago
      Thanks. It will be totally life changing, I can feel it already and it's still 5 months away. The downside is I currently live in a three bedroomed house and I'm moving into a 13 Sq m room. So a physical and mental declutter.
  - randomdata 13y ago
    > I've got 20 years professional programming experience. According to many, 20 years of professional programming experience is a death knell to even those with the best degrees money can buy. It is assumed you should have moved on to bigger and better things by that point (not an opinion I hold, but a sentiment that seems pervasive). Did you find that it became more difficult to find work as you got older?
    - SixSigma 13y ago
      A bit. I always worked at startups / business development. I love programming and I'm very good at it. I can smell hype. One of the things that turns me off, though, is the framework de jour scene but the converse is dull plodding. My degree is a BSc in Supply Chain Management after doing an HNC (part time) in Manufacturing Engineering financing it all working as a Cad draughtsperson for 3 years. The BSc is about 20% IT based and there's plenty of scope for modeling and statistical analysis so hopefully a perfect blend of skills.
- Denzel 13y ago
  I couldn't agree with you more. Whenever someone says, "Well you did it without a degree, why can't I?" I never discourage them, I simply stress the difficulty of their decision. Instead of credentialing with a degree, do you want to job hop for 3 years, constantly having to prove yourself time and time again just so you can move on to another company with an incrementally better salary? Do you want to be misunderstood for years at a time by strangers, friends, and family? Do you want to constantly have your opinion discounted until proven correct? These are just some of the things you'll have to deal with. When I look at my debt-ridden peers graduating from top colleges this summer, I can't help but feel happy about my head start: no debt, enough savings to do whatever I please at this point, and an above-average pedigree. But while it may sound like a "success story" to most and I am happy now, I'll be damned if there wasn't 10 years of darkness and constant feelings of inadequacy that I had to plod through very much alone. It's been one heck of a ride, that's for sure.
- FLUX-YOU 13y ago
  These days you can get a degree and still have just as hard of a road. Some (possibly most) degrees are not valued as a badge of general competence any longer IMO.
balls187 13y ago
> It's precisely that line of thinking which has resulted in the most debt-laden, over-educated and under-employed workforce in history. With a CS degree? Do you have facts to back that up?
- meritt 13y ago
  It was a broad statement against higher education in the US. There are exceptions, CS being a very notable one as this article points out.
Spooky23 13y ago
Nope, that's the slick sales presentations and readily available loans that convince otherwise intelligent high school kids & parents to attend fancy private schools with lots of ivy. I went to a not-so-fancy state school whose brutalist architecture looked more like a prison than a school. No ivy, few trees, poorly equipped gym. Got out with essentially zero debt, took a salary cut at my first job that was negated by my first job switch two years later.
- zhemao 13y ago
  Fancy private schools with lots of Ivy have pretty good financial aid. If your family has a relatively low income level it might even be cheaper to attend an Ivy league university than a state university.
  - Spooky23 13y ago
    I come from a middle-class background. My family was too poor to the rich and too rich to be poor. For me, in the 90's, the choice was about $8,000 in merit aid, ~$9,000 in unsubsidized stafford loans, ~$2,000 in state subsidized loans about something like $7,000 in PLUS loans for my parents. Or $5,000 or in-state tuition.
    - jjoonathan 13y ago
      Which school? Harvard claims to be cheaper than state schools for 90% of Americans, although I don't know how typical they are among the ivies. https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/fact-sheet https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/fact... Specifically, > parents making less than $65,000 are expected to contribute $0 > Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income
      - Spooky23 13y ago
        Harvard is different. Their endowment makes them more like a big hedge fund that happens to educate people on the side. Check the numbers at any mid-tier private university or engineering school. Maybe things are different now than in the 90s.

by meritt 13y ago

swalsh 13y ago

I never said it was a requirement, I feel myself successful and I don't have a degree. But the path has definitely been harder than my friends who do have one. So with that, I recommend not taking that path intentionally.

Infinitesimus 13y ago
I think u/merrit was actually on your side :P. Saying that the line of thinking by the company is what causes problems
SixSigma 13y ago
I'm a University drop out, 20 years of it. It has always been in my mind that I don't have a degree. It has closed doors to me, made me feel inferior in conversation and with the job market getting harder has shut off the job supply and I've got 20 years professional programming experience. The ad says Graduate Degree, that's that, no interesting job for you. I tried to go back to Uni but it was: you dropped out, so no loan for you, you have to pay for the first year yourself (we didn't even have loans the first time round). I have finally done it, this September I start at University once more.
- tilde_tilde 13y ago
  Congratulations!
  - SixSigma 13y ago
    Thanks. It will be totally life changing, I can feel it already and it's still 5 months away. The downside is I currently live in a three bedroomed house and I'm moving into a 13 Sq m room. So a physical and mental declutter.
- randomdata 13y ago
  > I've got 20 years professional programming experience. According to many, 20 years of professional programming experience is a death knell to even those with the best degrees money can buy. It is assumed you should have moved on to bigger and better things by that point (not an opinion I hold, but a sentiment that seems pervasive). Did you find that it became more difficult to find work as you got older?
  - SixSigma 13y ago
    A bit. I always worked at startups / business development. I love programming and I'm very good at it. I can smell hype. One of the things that turns me off, though, is the framework de jour scene but the converse is dull plodding. My degree is a BSc in Supply Chain Management after doing an HNC (part time) in Manufacturing Engineering financing it all working as a Cad draughtsperson for 3 years. The BSc is about 20% IT based and there's plenty of scope for modeling and statistical analysis so hopefully a perfect blend of skills.
Denzel 13y ago
I couldn't agree with you more. Whenever someone says, "Well you did it without a degree, why can't I?" I never discourage them, I simply stress the difficulty of their decision. Instead of credentialing with a degree, do you want to job hop for 3 years, constantly having to prove yourself time and time again just so you can move on to another company with an incrementally better salary? Do you want to be misunderstood for years at a time by strangers, friends, and family? Do you want to constantly have your opinion discounted until proven correct? These are just some of the things you'll have to deal with. When I look at my debt-ridden peers graduating from top colleges this summer, I can't help but feel happy about my head start: no debt, enough savings to do whatever I please at this point, and an above-average pedigree. But while it may sound like a "success story" to most and I am happy now, I'll be damned if there wasn't 10 years of darkness and constant feelings of inadequacy that I had to plod through very much alone. It's been one heck of a ride, that's for sure.
FLUX-YOU 13y ago
These days you can get a degree and still have just as hard of a road. Some (possibly most) degrees are not valued as a badge of general competence any longer IMO.

balls187 13y ago

> It's precisely that line of thinking which has resulted in the most debt-laden, over-educated and under-employed workforce in history. With a CS degree? Do you have facts to back that up?

meritt 13y ago
It was a broad statement against higher education in the US. There are exceptions, CS being a very notable one as this article points out.

Spooky23 13y ago

Nope, that's the slick sales presentations and readily available loans that convince otherwise intelligent high school kids & parents to attend fancy private schools with lots of ivy. I went to a not-so-fancy state school whose brutalist architecture looked more like a prison than a school. No ivy, few trees, poorly equipped gym. Got out with essentially zero debt, took a salary cut at my first job that was negated by my first job switch two years later.

zhemao 13y ago
Fancy private schools with lots of Ivy have pretty good financial aid. If your family has a relatively low income level it might even be cheaper to attend an Ivy league university than a state university.
- Spooky23 13y ago
  I come from a middle-class background. My family was too poor to the rich and too rich to be poor. For me, in the 90's, the choice was about $8,000 in merit aid, ~$9,000 in unsubsidized stafford loans, ~$2,000 in state subsidized loans about something like $7,000 in PLUS loans for my parents. Or $5,000 or in-state tuition.
  - jjoonathan 13y ago
    Which school? Harvard claims to be cheaper than state schools for 90% of Americans, although I don't know how typical they are among the ivies. https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/fact-sheet https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/fact... Specifically, > parents making less than $65,000 are expected to contribute $0 > Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income
    - Spooky23 13y ago
      Harvard is different. Their endowment makes them more like a big hedge fund that happens to educate people on the side. Check the numbers at any mid-tier private university or engineering school. Maybe things are different now than in the 90s.