8 ms·

You can also make an incredible ROI by not paying for an expensive degree and instead gain knowledge & experience through other means (teach yourself, free onli

by meritt 13y ago

You can also make an incredible ROI by not paying for an expensive degree and instead gain knowledge & experience through other means (teach yourself, free online courses, open-source projects, paid internships, etc). Just take a look at today's "Who is hiring?" [1] and you'll notice very few list degree requirements. Most are looking for a combination of experience and knowledge. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507765 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7507765

randomdata 13y ago
Yeah, it is troublesome to me that they always do these comparisons across professions. What would the numbers look like if they evaluated people with engineering degrees vs. people with other degrees (or perhaps no degrees) in the same jobs? Would the ROI of an engineering degree still come out so far ahead?
vonmoltke 13y ago
Which is fine if you are both good at and interested in something wherein you can do this. I have a BSEE and am trying to get back into an EE-oriented position. For EEs, things have gotten to the point where me just having a BS is tolerated; they really want an MS+. Professional licensure is going that route as well now, unfortunately.
not_paul_graham 13y ago
Everyone does not have access to the link that you've just posted. Also in fields other than computing, you can't get hired (of course there are always exceptions) to design mission critical systems unless you have an aerospace / mechanical / chemical engineering degree. Good luck studying on your own to want to work as a chemical engineer because MegaCorp will totally hire you to work with chemicals and there aren't many startups hiring ChemEs. Also, kids are quite gullible and everything for most kids suggests that you need to go to college. The path goes somewhat like this: born -> pre-school -> school -> middle/high school -> college There are a lot of people that take 6 figure loans to study photography, or major in english. That I don't get.
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  > There are a lot of people that take 6 figure loans to study photography, or major in english. That I don't get. I've always attributed this to > kids are quite gullible and everything for most kids suggests that you need to go to college They're doing it because someone told them to do it, no?
rayiner 13y ago
Relevant for computing, but not so much mechanical, chemical, aerospace, etc. The engineering world is big, and software development is just a small part of it.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - rayiner 13y ago
    That's total nonsense. You might want to be an engineer because you want a solid remunerative career, but have an affinity for chemistry rather than computing, or want to work on airplanes, etc.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
      - rayiner 13y ago
        You can be a potential English major, but decide to go into engineering because you want to be employable, and still have a preference within engineering fields. Just because a career isn't the one you have the most "passion" for doesn't mean all other careers are fungible.
swalsh 13y ago
Don't take this guys advice seriously. Not having a degree means you will get paid less than people you have proven to have better skills than, and many doors to many lucrative opportunities will be locked. You'll have a social stigma, and you'll constantly have to be proving yourself in situations where your coworkers don't. EDIT: my comment was a bit angered, and I apologize for that. Just this morning I found out that a company i had a great interview with yesterday told me that despite liking me the company had a policy that they can't hire senior engineers without a technical degree. Its tough.
- meritt 13y ago
  It's precisely that line of thinking which has resulted in the most debt-laden, over-educated and under-employed workforce in history. Getting a degree can be a good thing, absolutely, but it's by no means a requirement to success.
  - swalsh 13y ago
    I never said it was a requirement, I feel myself successful and I don't have a degree. But the path has definitely been harder than my friends who do have one. So with that, I recommend not taking that path intentionally.
    - Infinitesimus 13y ago
      I think u/merrit was actually on your side :P. Saying that the line of thinking by the company is what causes problems
    - SixSigma 13y ago
      I'm a University drop out, 20 years of it. It has always been in my mind that I don't have a degree. It has closed doors to me, made me feel inferior in conversation and with the job market getting harder has shut off the job supply and I've got 20 years professional programming experience. The ad says Graduate Degree, that's that, no interesting job for you. I tried to go back to Uni but it was: you dropped out, so no loan for you, you have to pay for the first year yourself (we didn't even have loans the first time round). I have finally done it, this September I start at University once more.
keerthiko 13y ago
I think adults seriously overestimate most kids' sense of long-term planning, commitment, self-awareness and grit. When I was 18, with 4 years of programming experience, chances were terribly tiny I would spend my time in a structured fashion continuing to improve my skills and then start a career early. More likely I would just sit around playing video games and reading interesting-sounding wikipedia articles, and maybe coding up the occasional fun toy or two until I got bored and ditched it. Until I started starving, and then go "Well f*&k. Should have thought about that." And I probably wouldn't think about that unless someone is dragging my ass into a college/job.
- Ologn 13y ago
  Right. I could even see someone spending months to learn Java in a structured fashion. But how many people are going to sit down and spend months studying in a rigorous fashion things like the theory of computation, or complexity theory, or lambda calculus, or graph theory? Recently I had to make a hash from a list of numbers, and thought to use a Gödel number for the hash. How many self-taught programmers will do this? I mean, how many self-taught people really sit down and learn a decent amount about even slightly complex things more immediately practical than pushdown automata, such as about critical sections and mutual exclusion?
  - FLUX-YOU 13y ago
    They might learn it if everyone required knowledge like that to get a job. Are junior level, self-taught staff really going to be hired to fix those problems? Maybe at Google, but not everyone's Google. Most of the self-taught crowd are gunning for web dev or design positions or bolting on some skills to do useful things and never need to make their own 'tools for the job'. If you're on your last leg for a shot at a career (like I am), there's a pretty big pull to get the minimum knowledge first so you're useful to someone and then go for advanced CS topics once you can pay your bills. A decent position allows saving for a CS degree.
  - bcbrown 13y ago
    I do. It's paid amazing dividends for my career. I studied Physics in college, spent a couple years writing test automation, and am now a software engineer. I'm almost-completely self-taught, and have spent the past two years going through all the undergrad CS curriculum. All I have left are Operating Systems, Distributed Systems, and Advanced Algorithms and Data Structures. I use textbooks for when I want to dive deep into the details, and Coursera lectures for higher-level overviews of topics I don't need to know in detail, such as Networking or Compilers.
hawkharris 13y ago
It sounds like you're talking about programming jobs and an education in computer science. In this area, it's true that you don't need a college degree. But the article makes no mention of computer science or programming. Instead, it talks about engineering, a set of disciplines that may involve programming but often centers on a much different curriculum. A degree in, say, mechanical or industrial engineering will unlock opportunities that would not be available otherwise.
- meritt 13y ago
  While the author, Fred Wilson, does indeed use the term "engineering", he shouldn't be using it. The source data is explicitly about Computer Science degrees: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/03/which-college-and-which-major-will-make-you-richest/359628/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/03/which-co... > "The three majors with the highest ROI in America are Computer Science, Computer Science, and Computer Science." I don't disagree with you but the context of this publication is absolutely about CompSci.
  - jerf 13y ago
    That's actually really interesting, I think. There are clearly some jobs that blow away computer science jobs, such as in the finance industry or certain lawyer positions, but for computer to average better, that implies those jobs are more of a lottery ticket than a computer science job.
  - fredgrott 13y ago
    you have to excuse Fred he has been away form programming for awhile :) Yes, I agree CS is different from Software Engineering
    - _delirium 13y ago
      CS isn't the same as software engineering, but the companies recruiting from Harvey Mudd CS majors tend to be fairly engineering-heavy in their outlook, even when hiring for CS positions. There's a lot of attention from places like Lockheed, Aerospace Corporation, even the oil & gas sector. Those kinds of companies typically require a STEM degree, unlike tech startups. Which specific degree varies based on the job: sometimes CS, sometimes engineering, sometimes math, sometimes it can be flexible. You can get a loose idea of who's interested in recruiting there by looking at who sponsors senior clinic projects, and what areas they're in, e.g.: http://www.cs.hmc.edu/clinic/projects/ http://www.cs.hmc.edu/clinic/projects/
Ologn 13y ago
> Just take a look at today's "Who is hiring?" and you'll notice very few list degree requirements. Most are looking for a combination of experience and knowledge. Key word is today. Yes, today, with the DJUSSV up 150% over the past five years, and billions being shelled out for Oculus and Whatsapp and so forth, no degree is needed for many jobs. What happens when the economy takes a dive like in 2008/2009, or 2000/2001? You get laid off from your company and then send your resume in to open job slots on Craigslist. Except they are getting dozens, maybe hundreds of resumes. Even after culling for relevant experience, companies might have dozens of good looking resumes to choose from. The next obvious way to cull resumes is get rid of the pile with no degrees. In bad times, CL job ads dry up, especially those not requiring a degree. Even if it doesn't state it explicitly, HR will probably grill you on your education background and plans. As far as an expensive degree, people can go to a good state school and get Pell grants and the like. As far as people teaching themselves, most good programmers are always teaching themselves. They need a basis to work off of though and a BSCS is that basis. If you're going to spend four years studying the basics you need to know, why not borrow/spend the $50k to go to a very good school like Berkeley or UIUC, down to the $25k for state schools with decent CS programs?

by meritt 13y ago

randomdata 13y ago

Yeah, it is troublesome to me that they always do these comparisons across professions. What would the numbers look like if they evaluated people with engineering degrees vs. people with other degrees (or perhaps no degrees) in the same jobs? Would the ROI of an engineering degree still come out so far ahead?

vonmoltke 13y ago

Which is fine if you are both good at and interested in something wherein you can do this. I have a BSEE and am trying to get back into an EE-oriented position. For EEs, things have gotten to the point where me just having a BS is tolerated; they really want an MS+. Professional licensure is going that route as well now, unfortunately.

not_paul_graham 13y ago

Everyone does not have access to the link that you've just posted. Also in fields other than computing, you can't get hired (of course there are always exceptions) to design mission critical systems unless you have an aerospace / mechanical / chemical engineering degree. Good luck studying on your own to want to work as a chemical engineer because MegaCorp will totally hire you to work with chemicals and there aren't many startups hiring ChemEs. Also, kids are quite gullible and everything for most kids suggests that you need to go to college. The path goes somewhat like this: born -> pre-school -> school -> middle/high school -> college There are a lot of people that take 6 figure loans to study photography, or major in english. That I don't get.

thaumasiotes 13y ago
> There are a lot of people that take 6 figure loans to study photography, or major in english. That I don't get. I've always attributed this to > kids are quite gullible and everything for most kids suggests that you need to go to college They're doing it because someone told them to do it, no?

rayiner 13y ago

Relevant for computing, but not so much mechanical, chemical, aerospace, etc. The engineering world is big, and software development is just a small part of it.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- rayiner 13y ago
  That's total nonsense. You might want to be an engineer because you want a solid remunerative career, but have an affinity for chemistry rather than computing, or want to work on airplanes, etc.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - rayiner 13y ago
      You can be a potential English major, but decide to go into engineering because you want to be employable, and still have a preference within engineering fields. Just because a career isn't the one you have the most "passion" for doesn't mean all other careers are fungible.

swalsh 13y ago

Don't take this guys advice seriously. Not having a degree means you will get paid less than people you have proven to have better skills than, and many doors to many lucrative opportunities will be locked. You'll have a social stigma, and you'll constantly have to be proving yourself in situations where your coworkers don't. EDIT: my comment was a bit angered, and I apologize for that. Just this morning I found out that a company i had a great interview with yesterday told me that despite liking me the company had a policy that they can't hire senior engineers without a technical degree. Its tough.

meritt 13y ago
It's precisely that line of thinking which has resulted in the most debt-laden, over-educated and under-employed workforce in history. Getting a degree can be a good thing, absolutely, but it's by no means a requirement to success.
- swalsh 13y ago
  I never said it was a requirement, I feel myself successful and I don't have a degree. But the path has definitely been harder than my friends who do have one. So with that, I recommend not taking that path intentionally.
  - Infinitesimus 13y ago
    I think u/merrit was actually on your side :P. Saying that the line of thinking by the company is what causes problems
  - SixSigma 13y ago
    I'm a University drop out, 20 years of it. It has always been in my mind that I don't have a degree. It has closed doors to me, made me feel inferior in conversation and with the job market getting harder has shut off the job supply and I've got 20 years professional programming experience. The ad says Graduate Degree, that's that, no interesting job for you. I tried to go back to Uni but it was: you dropped out, so no loan for you, you have to pay for the first year yourself (we didn't even have loans the first time round). I have finally done it, this September I start at University once more.

keerthiko 13y ago

I think adults seriously overestimate most kids' sense of long-term planning, commitment, self-awareness and grit. When I was 18, with 4 years of programming experience, chances were terribly tiny I would spend my time in a structured fashion continuing to improve my skills and then start a career early. More likely I would just sit around playing video games and reading interesting-sounding wikipedia articles, and maybe coding up the occasional fun toy or two until I got bored and ditched it. Until I started starving, and then go "Well f*&k. Should have thought about that." And I probably wouldn't think about that unless someone is dragging my ass into a college/job.

Ologn 13y ago
Right. I could even see someone spending months to learn Java in a structured fashion. But how many people are going to sit down and spend months studying in a rigorous fashion things like the theory of computation, or complexity theory, or lambda calculus, or graph theory? Recently I had to make a hash from a list of numbers, and thought to use a Gödel number for the hash. How many self-taught programmers will do this? I mean, how many self-taught people really sit down and learn a decent amount about even slightly complex things more immediately practical than pushdown automata, such as about critical sections and mutual exclusion?
- FLUX-YOU 13y ago
  They might learn it if everyone required knowledge like that to get a job. Are junior level, self-taught staff really going to be hired to fix those problems? Maybe at Google, but not everyone's Google. Most of the self-taught crowd are gunning for web dev or design positions or bolting on some skills to do useful things and never need to make their own 'tools for the job'. If you're on your last leg for a shot at a career (like I am), there's a pretty big pull to get the minimum knowledge first so you're useful to someone and then go for advanced CS topics once you can pay your bills. A decent position allows saving for a CS degree.
- bcbrown 13y ago
  I do. It's paid amazing dividends for my career. I studied Physics in college, spent a couple years writing test automation, and am now a software engineer. I'm almost-completely self-taught, and have spent the past two years going through all the undergrad CS curriculum. All I have left are Operating Systems, Distributed Systems, and Advanced Algorithms and Data Structures. I use textbooks for when I want to dive deep into the details, and Coursera lectures for higher-level overviews of topics I don't need to know in detail, such as Networking or Compilers.

hawkharris 13y ago

It sounds like you're talking about programming jobs and an education in computer science. In this area, it's true that you don't need a college degree. But the article makes no mention of computer science or programming. Instead, it talks about engineering, a set of disciplines that may involve programming but often centers on a much different curriculum. A degree in, say, mechanical or industrial engineering will unlock opportunities that would not be available otherwise.

meritt 13y ago
While the author, Fred Wilson, does indeed use the term "engineering", he shouldn't be using it. The source data is explicitly about Computer Science degrees: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/03/which-college-and-which-major-will-make-you-richest/359628/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/03/which-co... > "The three majors with the highest ROI in America are Computer Science, Computer Science, and Computer Science." I don't disagree with you but the context of this publication is absolutely about CompSci.
- jerf 13y ago
  That's actually really interesting, I think. There are clearly some jobs that blow away computer science jobs, such as in the finance industry or certain lawyer positions, but for computer to average better, that implies those jobs are more of a lottery ticket than a computer science job.
- fredgrott 13y ago
  you have to excuse Fred he has been away form programming for awhile :) Yes, I agree CS is different from Software Engineering
  - _delirium 13y ago
    CS isn't the same as software engineering, but the companies recruiting from Harvey Mudd CS majors tend to be fairly engineering-heavy in their outlook, even when hiring for CS positions. There's a lot of attention from places like Lockheed, Aerospace Corporation, even the oil & gas sector. Those kinds of companies typically require a STEM degree, unlike tech startups. Which specific degree varies based on the job: sometimes CS, sometimes engineering, sometimes math, sometimes it can be flexible. You can get a loose idea of who's interested in recruiting there by looking at who sponsors senior clinic projects, and what areas they're in, e.g.: http://www.cs.hmc.edu/clinic/projects/ http://www.cs.hmc.edu/clinic/projects/

Ologn 13y ago

> Just take a look at today's "Who is hiring?" and you'll notice very few list degree requirements. Most are looking for a combination of experience and knowledge. Key word is today. Yes, today, with the DJUSSV up 150% over the past five years, and billions being shelled out for Oculus and Whatsapp and so forth, no degree is needed for many jobs. What happens when the economy takes a dive like in 2008/2009, or 2000/2001? You get laid off from your company and then send your resume in to open job slots on Craigslist. Except they are getting dozens, maybe hundreds of resumes. Even after culling for relevant experience, companies might have dozens of good looking resumes to choose from. The next obvious way to cull resumes is get rid of the pile with no degrees. In bad times, CL job ads dry up, especially those not requiring a degree. Even if it doesn't state it explicitly, HR will probably grill you on your education background and plans. As far as an expensive degree, people can go to a good state school and get Pell grants and the like. As far as people teaching themselves, most good programmers are always teaching themselves. They need a basis to work off of though and a BSCS is that basis. If you're going to spend four years studying the basics you need to know, why not borrow/spend the $50k to go to a very good school like Berkeley or UIUC, down to the $25k for state schools with decent CS programs?