5 ms·

What Happens to Asian-American Overachievers When the Test-Taking Ends? (2011)

deleted 13y ago
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brandonhsiao 13y ago
This is the fifth or so time I've upvoted an article simply because I wanted to see discussion on it. In this case, I found the topic interesting but the article itself long-winded and boring to read. Is this a permissible reason to upvote something?
- option_greek 13y ago
  Yes so long winded like all their other articles are.. and off topic but I can't help but notice none of them wear shirts. Whats with that ?
  - barry-cotter 13y ago
    Let me summarize my feelings toward Asian values: Fuck filial piety. Fuck grade-grubbing. Fuck Ivy League mania. Fuck deference to authority. Fuck humility and hard work. Fuck harmonious relations. Fuck sacrificing for the future. Fuck earnest, striving middle-class servility. He's an American middle class poseur. Consciously or unconsciously he rejects middle class values so that he not be confused for them, the bourgeois. Neither poor people nor rich people have this kind of bile, because the first are not going to be mistaken for it and the second don't care if they are.
- danmaz74 13y ago
  I don't know if it's "permissible", but I've done that myself many times. Often, the discussion on HN is better than the article itself.
- diskerror 13y ago
  I'd imagine so, there is a comment system for a reason. Although, most tend to stray away from long articles such as this one. Hacker News would benefit from a summation web application for articles like these.
- RivieraKid 13y ago
  I think the majority of upvotes is like that, I do it too and don't think there's anything wrong with it.
- mathattack 13y ago
  I skipped to page 11 right away too. Great topic, overblown article. When people tear apart the Tiger Mom book because they think overachievers miss out on important things, they miss the core point of the book. The author admits that something was wrong, but she just can't help herself.
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einhverfr 13y ago
I am married to a Chinese-Indonesian woman. We have three children. It is fascinating to be forced to stare across a cultural gap every day navigating two very, very different worlds. I therefore feel I am in a very different position to discuss this issue than I suspect most here are. There is a fundamental mismatch between Asian culture and American culture. This mismatch is even greater than it is between European culture and Asian culture. Americans are extraordinarily individualist. Asians are extraordinarily communitarian. Family is, in a very real way, the economic and social basis of survival in most of Asia. And yes, filial piety is a big part of that. I will also say that my wife can't stand the US because of the cultural gap, so she took the opposite direction than many of these writers, and instead of wondering about Asian values, rejected entirely the American ones. We now live in Indonesia. Asian culture works for the most part, even as strict and harsh as it is. Many of my Asian-American friends in the US have been able to retire early. And yes, Asians do dominate some industries. And later in life, having children who will care for you in your old age is far better than the American way. There is much that mainstream American culture can learn from Asian culture as we must find more sustainable ways to live. But there are costs too. At least here among the Chinese-Indonesians, very little or no value is placed on childhood play. It's just a waste of time when one could be learning how to be an adult. What is vitally missing in my view is a recognition that kids learn extremely important lessons through play, and that these lessons are no less important to success than learning math or science in school. This has been a challenge for our kids because cultivating a sense of play goes against the culture. What disappoints me about the article is the fact that it seems very much like a one-sided self-critique. Immigrants generally have the potential to disrupt existing cultural ways of thinking by offering a different sort of critique. But here what I see is "I want to stop being Asian and be just American." But instead if we had a dialog, we'd see that there are things we can learn from eachother, and that is a far better way forward than lamenting Asian values.
- sakagami0 13y ago
  >lamenting Asian values I think the article is realizes that most people praise what Asians are doing but don't yet realize its faults and is trying to bring up the counterpoint. Rather than giving us a discussion, the writer attempts to dispel a myth so that we as the readers can have our own discussion.
fidotron 13y ago
I wonder how much of this derives from the history of the Imperial Exam ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_exam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_exam ). If you have just one exam which basically defines your ability (and effectively that of your family) to succeed then it encourages exactly the sort of behaviour that is stereotypical of Asian-Americans. You could argue that certain schools in France, Oxbridge in the UK, and the US' Ivy League are part of a similar phenomenon, but the difference there is even if you don't get to those institutions you can still do reasonably well in life.
dnautics 13y ago
I think the article overplays asian stereotypes. I, personally think that I fall into almost none of them. I'm rarely subservient and am generally anti-authoritarian. I speak up at meetings. All the time. I even called out a fellow postdoc for using a line graph when he should have used a bar graph (In a moment of passion I called the incorrect usage f---ing retarded, which then got picked up by the 80 year old nobel laureate in the lab). My science isn't terrible - I improved an enzyme four fold, which is a feat only a handful of people in the world can claim. I even started my own nonprofit with a future view of securing science funding outside of the traditional (and increasingly scarce) funding streams. Yet, I still can't advance beyond the "bamboo ceiling" and failed to obtain a faculty position in academia. When applying to colleges, I only got into one school (although I only applied to six) - despite having rather good scores, but also having directed a full-length theatre production, and being captain of a regionally victorious chess team (which, you would think, would imply leadership potential). I even placed in my category at the International Science Fair and failed to get a position at MIT. There's racism against Asians, it's deep-seated, and it's not going away anytime soon for many many reasons.
- corin_ 13y ago
  Without commenting specifically on the accuracy or lack thereof of Asian stereotypes (my assumption is that they're massively exaggerated, as a side note), the fact that you don't fit them doesn't really mean anything. It's an accurate stereotype of human beings that they have two legs, but there are still people who can tell their story of how this stereotype doesn't fit them.
- fatjokes 13y ago
  > I even called out a fellow postdoc for using a line graph when he should have used a bar graph (In a moment of passion I called the incorrect usage f---ing retarded... That's an overreaction for a small error, don't you think? Not to mention unconstructively critical and unnecessarily antagonistic. Definitely not something I'd want to see coming from faculty.
  - dnautics 13y ago
z92 13y ago
tl;dr? The article is too long. No chapter index either.
nirnira 13y ago
In the end, both cultures (Western and East Asian) have their own deficits, their own things worth learning from each other. Both cultures are missing pieces of the same puzzle. The Asians have focus, the ability to set and meet goals, but those goals are generally poorly considered - born of too harsh a worldview, too competitive, too zero-sum. The Westerners on the other hand have the spark and energy that can produce great things, but focus among individuals is generally poor, and Western cultures fail to set and adhere to clear guidelines about good and bad behaviour. Spark and focus. Neither lesson is worth much individually. Both failings produce their own forms of individual and social dysfunction. But if both cultures would combine their strengths, the result would be largely unstoppable.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
brandonhsiao 13y ago
As an Asian-American who recently exited childhood I'd say the biggest gap is that in Asian culture there's fundamentally (a) one way of doing things that (b) one should not stray from, even from childhoood. Asians don't like surprises. To them the idea of a risk is something where you don't have a set plan, not necessarily something that's actually risky. That's why Asians like engineering, medical, accounting, and legal jobs-- fields where it's possible to carve out a formulaic living. It's also why Asians like math and piano and violin so much: you can be amazing by working hard on a predefined problem. This theory explains the common perception that Asians are mindless drones who admittedly dominate lots of fields. They look like mindless drones because they explicitly try to follow the status quo; they dominate lots of fields because picking a problem early and just sticking with it does make you pretty good at it. Actually, this must've worked pretty well back when it life really did have more or less one realistic path to take. What's changed is that life's gotten more complicated.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

This is the fifth or so time I've upvoted an article simply because I wanted to see discussion on it. In this case, I found the topic interesting but the article itself long-winded and boring to read. Is this a permissible reason to upvote something?

option_greek 13y ago
Yes so long winded like all their other articles are.. and off topic but I can't help but notice none of them wear shirts. Whats with that ?
- barry-cotter 13y ago
  Let me summarize my feelings toward Asian values: Fuck filial piety. Fuck grade-grubbing. Fuck Ivy League mania. Fuck deference to authority. Fuck humility and hard work. Fuck harmonious relations. Fuck sacrificing for the future. Fuck earnest, striving middle-class servility. He's an American middle class poseur. Consciously or unconsciously he rejects middle class values so that he not be confused for them, the bourgeois. Neither poor people nor rich people have this kind of bile, because the first are not going to be mistaken for it and the second don't care if they are.
danmaz74 13y ago
I don't know if it's "permissible", but I've done that myself many times. Often, the discussion on HN is better than the article itself.
diskerror 13y ago
I'd imagine so, there is a comment system for a reason. Although, most tend to stray away from long articles such as this one. Hacker News would benefit from a summation web application for articles like these.
RivieraKid 13y ago
I think the majority of upvotes is like that, I do it too and don't think there's anything wrong with it.
mathattack 13y ago
I skipped to page 11 right away too. Great topic, overblown article. When people tear apart the Tiger Mom book because they think overachievers miss out on important things, they miss the core point of the book. The author admits that something was wrong, but she just can't help herself.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

einhverfr 13y ago

I am married to a Chinese-Indonesian woman. We have three children. It is fascinating to be forced to stare across a cultural gap every day navigating two very, very different worlds. I therefore feel I am in a very different position to discuss this issue than I suspect most here are. There is a fundamental mismatch between Asian culture and American culture. This mismatch is even greater than it is between European culture and Asian culture. Americans are extraordinarily individualist. Asians are extraordinarily communitarian. Family is, in a very real way, the economic and social basis of survival in most of Asia. And yes, filial piety is a big part of that. I will also say that my wife can't stand the US because of the cultural gap, so she took the opposite direction than many of these writers, and instead of wondering about Asian values, rejected entirely the American ones. We now live in Indonesia. Asian culture works for the most part, even as strict and harsh as it is. Many of my Asian-American friends in the US have been able to retire early. And yes, Asians do dominate some industries. And later in life, having children who will care for you in your old age is far better than the American way. There is much that mainstream American culture can learn from Asian culture as we must find more sustainable ways to live. But there are costs too. At least here among the Chinese-Indonesians, very little or no value is placed on childhood play. It's just a waste of time when one could be learning how to be an adult. What is vitally missing in my view is a recognition that kids learn extremely important lessons through play, and that these lessons are no less important to success than learning math or science in school. This has been a challenge for our kids because cultivating a sense of play goes against the culture. What disappoints me about the article is the fact that it seems very much like a one-sided self-critique. Immigrants generally have the potential to disrupt existing cultural ways of thinking by offering a different sort of critique. But here what I see is "I want to stop being Asian and be just American." But instead if we had a dialog, we'd see that there are things we can learn from eachother, and that is a far better way forward than lamenting Asian values.

sakagami0 13y ago
>lamenting Asian values I think the article is realizes that most people praise what Asians are doing but don't yet realize its faults and is trying to bring up the counterpoint. Rather than giving us a discussion, the writer attempts to dispel a myth so that we as the readers can have our own discussion.

fidotron 13y ago

I wonder how much of this derives from the history of the Imperial Exam ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_exam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_exam ). If you have just one exam which basically defines your ability (and effectively that of your family) to succeed then it encourages exactly the sort of behaviour that is stereotypical of Asian-Americans. You could argue that certain schools in France, Oxbridge in the UK, and the US' Ivy League are part of a similar phenomenon, but the difference there is even if you don't get to those institutions you can still do reasonably well in life.

dnautics 13y ago

I think the article overplays asian stereotypes. I, personally think that I fall into almost none of them. I'm rarely subservient and am generally anti-authoritarian. I speak up at meetings. All the time. I even called out a fellow postdoc for using a line graph when he should have used a bar graph (In a moment of passion I called the incorrect usage f---ing retarded, which then got picked up by the 80 year old nobel laureate in the lab). My science isn't terrible - I improved an enzyme four fold, which is a feat only a handful of people in the world can claim. I even started my own nonprofit with a future view of securing science funding outside of the traditional (and increasingly scarce) funding streams. Yet, I still can't advance beyond the "bamboo ceiling" and failed to obtain a faculty position in academia. When applying to colleges, I only got into one school (although I only applied to six) - despite having rather good scores, but also having directed a full-length theatre production, and being captain of a regionally victorious chess team (which, you would think, would imply leadership potential). I even placed in my category at the International Science Fair and failed to get a position at MIT. There's racism against Asians, it's deep-seated, and it's not going away anytime soon for many many reasons.

corin_ 13y ago
Without commenting specifically on the accuracy or lack thereof of Asian stereotypes (my assumption is that they're massively exaggerated, as a side note), the fact that you don't fit them doesn't really mean anything. It's an accurate stereotype of human beings that they have two legs, but there are still people who can tell their story of how this stereotype doesn't fit them.
fatjokes 13y ago
> I even called out a fellow postdoc for using a line graph when he should have used a bar graph (In a moment of passion I called the incorrect usage f---ing retarded... That's an overreaction for a small error, don't you think? Not to mention unconstructively critical and unnecessarily antagonistic. Definitely not something I'd want to see coming from faculty.
- dnautics 13y ago

z92 13y ago

tl;dr? The article is too long. No chapter index either.

nirnira 13y ago

In the end, both cultures (Western and East Asian) have their own deficits, their own things worth learning from each other. Both cultures are missing pieces of the same puzzle. The Asians have focus, the ability to set and meet goals, but those goals are generally poorly considered - born of too harsh a worldview, too competitive, too zero-sum. The Westerners on the other hand have the spark and energy that can produce great things, but focus among individuals is generally poor, and Western cultures fail to set and adhere to clear guidelines about good and bad behaviour. Spark and focus. Neither lesson is worth much individually. Both failings produce their own forms of individual and social dysfunction. But if both cultures would combine their strengths, the result would be largely unstoppable.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

brandonhsiao 13y ago

As an Asian-American who recently exited childhood I'd say the biggest gap is that in Asian culture there's fundamentally (a) one way of doing things that (b) one should not stray from, even from childhoood. Asians don't like surprises. To them the idea of a risk is something where you don't have a set plan, not necessarily something that's actually risky. That's why Asians like engineering, medical, accounting, and legal jobs-- fields where it's possible to carve out a formulaic living. It's also why Asians like math and piano and violin so much: you can be amazing by working hard on a predefined problem. This theory explains the common perception that Asians are mindless drones who admittedly dominate lots of fields. They look like mindless drones because they explicitly try to follow the status quo; they dominate lots of fields because picking a problem early and just sticking with it does make you pretty good at it. Actually, this must've worked pretty well back when it life really did have more or less one realistic path to take. What's changed is that life's gotten more complicated.