12 ms·

And if this doesn't work, eventually when you try to message a Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, or other religiously-observant person from a denomination whose leaders

by gojomo 13y ago

And if this doesn't work, eventually when you try to message a Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, or other religiously-observant person from a denomination whose leaders publicly disapprove of homosexuality, you'll see a message from OKCupid like: Religion isn't normally the business of a website. But you've expressed an interest in dating someone whose religion denies equal rights to gay people. Sure, this person may seem OK, and may even have their own opinions, but the leaders of their religion spread hatred, and it pains us to send even a single quantum of relationship happiness towards people who still affiliate with that religion. If you still want to date them, you can click the link below, but wouldn't you really rather date the following matches, who we've determined from their public and private questionnaire answers better reflect OKCupid's approved religious and political values? Seriously, I would have expected a dating website to have a deeper respect for the often-arbitrary reasons individual beliefs deviate from the norms of their family, employer, or community.

pvnick 13y ago
This is not about what's right. It's about attention, meaning user growth and ad revenue. OkCupid's leadership does not actually care about Eich's appointment.
- munificent 13y ago
  Like most dichotomies, this one is false. It is more probably true that OkCupid cares about both attention and the underlying social issue.
dmazin 13y ago
The problem is not that Eich's beliefs are a deviation from a norm (whether they are or not is irrelevant). His beliefs are hateful. The reason for this particular message is because it is part of a greater campaign to show Mozilla that users and producers on the internet are not in support of Eich's appointment.
- Diamons 13y ago
  America - everyone can have their own opinion unless it disagrees with the majority.
- vacri 13y ago
  Given that his beliefs in 2008 were echoed by a majority of Californian voters, it's hard to argue that they're a deviation from the norm.
  - pierlux 13y ago
    At thin majority and this is a weak argument anyway.
    - vacri 13y ago
      A norm just has to be common, not a majority. Voting for a major political party is a norm, regardless of whether your party wins or loses, for example. I don't support his views, but to call them as 'not a norm' mischaracterises them and doesn't particularly help in finding tactics against them.
  - dmazin 13y ago
    Yeah, unfortunately.
  - firstOrder 13y ago
    Is Firefox a local project? It is a project used by the industrialized world, and by some of the non industrialized world. More than 47% of voters in California voted against this bill. Deep pocketed people like Eich were able to get that thin majority, by getting every hayseed in the central valley, north coast and Orange county out to the polls. A thin majority of one state in fifty of one country isn't much of a norm to deviate from.
    - vacri 13y ago
      When you're arguing for inclusion, you should avoid pejorative terms like 'hayseed'.
webwright 13y ago
Today, it's being anti-gay-rights is acceptable to lots of people. 50 years ago, being a racist was acceptable to lots of people. Would you work for or buy products from a CEO who was an unapologetic racist just because his beliefs were a product of his family/community? A good question to ask: If you think we will evolve to the point where gay rights are a given, what should we do right now? Should we be respectful for these often-arbitrary beliefs or should we try to make people/companies with these beliefs uncomfortable (but in kind/respectful way)? Honest question.
- sentenza 13y ago
  Wait. The guy is also the inventor of Javascript. Shouldn't everybody be boycotting that? I mean it has a lot more to do with him than Firefox does. After all, he's the CEO of Mozilla Corporation (not the Foundation), which is only indirectly connected to Firefox, but he _invented_ Javascript! What am I missing here?
  - oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
    The fact that it's realistically possible to boycott (i.e. not use) Firefox, but boycotting Javascript is - essentially - impossible. Sure, you can disable it in your browser, but that's nowhere near an outright boycott. (BTW, this is just one difference, one that I haven't seen anyone else pointing out, whilst other, just as good - if not better - differences have been identified in this very post)
    - sentenza 13y ago
      Ok I see that it is quite unrealistic to go community-wide with a Javascript boycott (and I was talking about developers, not users). It's just that singling out Firefox to me seems so arbitrary. Now the target is Firefox, the last big independent browser, even though it was _Mozilla Corporation_ (not the foundation) that made the wrong choice. Mozilla Corporation is IMO the place were pressure should be applied. I realize now that this is probably what annoyed me most about how this affair developed. I am quite attached to Firefox and was rather surprised that it became a target in a scandal that revolves around a stupid move by Mozilla Corporation.
ignostic 13y ago
There's a big difference between discriminating against a person based on their beliefs and trying to prevent discrimination based on beliefs. This comment is shocking in that you not only miss that difference, but imply that someone attempting to prevent discrimination is more likely to be a party to discrimination! Holding a religious belief is one thing, and I'd be upset if OKC was discriminating against any group for holding a personal religious view. You cross a line when you try to outlaw something (that does not infringe on another's rights) based on personal or religious belief. I don't care at all if Brendan Eich is or is not gay. I'd be saddened if he thought it was immoral, but grant him the right. What upsets me is that he's willing to donate money to organizations that, in my view, encourage discrimination based on sexual orientation. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, so long as those beliefs don't lead to actions that infringe on the rights of others. I believe Brendan Eich has crossed that line, and that OKC is to be praised for exercising their right to free speech in defense of equality.
arjie 13y ago
Exactly what I say, but then when I donate to Al Qaeda everyone acts like I'm the villain, not the people who jail me for just believing in something. I don't actually donate to Al Qaeda, and they're not equivalent to Eich, but the opinion expressed in your comment is applicable to both.
pjbrunet 13y ago
Do you have any theological credentials to back up these accusations?
MrZongle2 13y ago
I was not aware that OKCupid was so theophobic.
Einstalbert 13y ago
OKCupid, for people without those overbearing, quietly judgmental matchmaking aunts, friends of parents, co-workers, etc.

by gojomo 13y ago

pvnick 13y ago

This is not about what's right. It's about attention, meaning user growth and ad revenue. OkCupid's leadership does not actually care about Eich's appointment.

munificent 13y ago
Like most dichotomies, this one is false. It is more probably true that OkCupid cares about both attention and the underlying social issue.

dmazin 13y ago

The problem is not that Eich's beliefs are a deviation from a norm (whether they are or not is irrelevant). His beliefs are hateful. The reason for this particular message is because it is part of a greater campaign to show Mozilla that users and producers on the internet are not in support of Eich's appointment.

Diamons 13y ago
America - everyone can have their own opinion unless it disagrees with the majority.
vacri 13y ago
Given that his beliefs in 2008 were echoed by a majority of Californian voters, it's hard to argue that they're a deviation from the norm.
- pierlux 13y ago
  At thin majority and this is a weak argument anyway.
  - vacri 13y ago
    A norm just has to be common, not a majority. Voting for a major political party is a norm, regardless of whether your party wins or loses, for example. I don't support his views, but to call them as 'not a norm' mischaracterises them and doesn't particularly help in finding tactics against them.
- dmazin 13y ago
  Yeah, unfortunately.
- firstOrder 13y ago
  Is Firefox a local project? It is a project used by the industrialized world, and by some of the non industrialized world. More than 47% of voters in California voted against this bill. Deep pocketed people like Eich were able to get that thin majority, by getting every hayseed in the central valley, north coast and Orange county out to the polls. A thin majority of one state in fifty of one country isn't much of a norm to deviate from.
  - vacri 13y ago
    When you're arguing for inclusion, you should avoid pejorative terms like 'hayseed'.

webwright 13y ago

Today, it's being anti-gay-rights is acceptable to lots of people. 50 years ago, being a racist was acceptable to lots of people. Would you work for or buy products from a CEO who was an unapologetic racist just because his beliefs were a product of his family/community? A good question to ask: If you think we will evolve to the point where gay rights are a given, what should we do right now? Should we be respectful for these often-arbitrary beliefs or should we try to make people/companies with these beliefs uncomfortable (but in kind/respectful way)? Honest question.

sentenza 13y ago
Wait. The guy is also the inventor of Javascript. Shouldn't everybody be boycotting that? I mean it has a lot more to do with him than Firefox does. After all, he's the CEO of Mozilla Corporation (not the Foundation), which is only indirectly connected to Firefox, but he _invented_ Javascript! What am I missing here?
- oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
  The fact that it's realistically possible to boycott (i.e. not use) Firefox, but boycotting Javascript is - essentially - impossible. Sure, you can disable it in your browser, but that's nowhere near an outright boycott. (BTW, this is just one difference, one that I haven't seen anyone else pointing out, whilst other, just as good - if not better - differences have been identified in this very post)
  - sentenza 13y ago
    Ok I see that it is quite unrealistic to go community-wide with a Javascript boycott (and I was talking about developers, not users). It's just that singling out Firefox to me seems so arbitrary. Now the target is Firefox, the last big independent browser, even though it was _Mozilla Corporation_ (not the foundation) that made the wrong choice. Mozilla Corporation is IMO the place were pressure should be applied. I realize now that this is probably what annoyed me most about how this affair developed. I am quite attached to Firefox and was rather surprised that it became a target in a scandal that revolves around a stupid move by Mozilla Corporation.

ignostic 13y ago

There's a big difference between discriminating against a person based on their beliefs and trying to prevent discrimination based on beliefs. This comment is shocking in that you not only miss that difference, but imply that someone attempting to prevent discrimination is more likely to be a party to discrimination! Holding a religious belief is one thing, and I'd be upset if OKC was discriminating against any group for holding a personal religious view. You cross a line when you try to outlaw something (that does not infringe on another's rights) based on personal or religious belief. I don't care at all if Brendan Eich is or is not gay. I'd be saddened if he thought it was immoral, but grant him the right. What upsets me is that he's willing to donate money to organizations that, in my view, encourage discrimination based on sexual orientation. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, so long as those beliefs don't lead to actions that infringe on the rights of others. I believe Brendan Eich has crossed that line, and that OKC is to be praised for exercising their right to free speech in defense of equality.

arjie 13y ago

Exactly what I say, but then when I donate to Al Qaeda everyone acts like I'm the villain, not the people who jail me for just believing in something. I don't actually donate to Al Qaeda, and they're not equivalent to Eich, but the opinion expressed in your comment is applicable to both.

pjbrunet 13y ago

Do you have any theological credentials to back up these accusations?

MrZongle2 13y ago

I was not aware that OKCupid was so theophobic.

Einstalbert 13y ago

OKCupid, for people without those overbearing, quietly judgmental matchmaking aunts, friends of parents, co-workers, etc.