4 ms·

"He asked to see her license. [She] didn't have one." The article started off with the theme in the title: she can't pay the fine for a traffic ticket. This wo

by delinka 13y ago

"He asked to see her license. [She] didn't have one." The article started off with the theme in the title: she can't pay the fine for a traffic ticket. This would be pretty damning if you needed to drive to get to work. But she hasn't worked in a decade. Presumably because of injuries from a car wreck. Then she's driving without a license. I'm sorry, but you can't thumb your nose at the law like this. You don't have the right to drive around unlicensed. She's on disability, she doesn't have a job to drive to, nor the income to pay the fine ... so she must adapt her life to live without a license: walk to the store, ride with someone else to go to further places. Anyway, the story goes on from there about how she can't afford to pay the fines and the fees and ... I'd like more information before I can really make judgement about this person. What are the details of this 1997 (did I math that correctly?) car wreck? Is she at fault? Were there any settlements involved? What kind of injury does she have that keeps her from working? Can she learn to do something that doesn't affect her disability? Specifically, what injury prevents her working but allows her to drive? I get that the world is unfair to the poor. I know that these collection systems for fines with private companies involved are abhorrent. I understand that a societal shift is needed to help with many lives that are so much less than ideal. What I don't understand is how, when someone makes a colossal mistake (especially one that we've all been educated about), anyone else would blame everyone but the mistaken. For me, this whole story hinged on that one time she got caught driving without a license: there's no reason she should have been unaware of the consequences.

tinbad 13y ago
This, this and a hundred times this. I'm sick of being pushed into feeling sorry for people in a shitty situation, for whatever reason but mostly for being bad at making (life) decisions. I got rear-ended recently by a driver who ran off the 'crime scene'. He was probably uninsured, but we'll never know since I didn't catch his license plate. I just bought a brand new car and damage was substantial. I ended up taking the hit. I'm not poor, but I ain't rich either. Driving uninsured (and without license!) means you're screwing other people for being in a shitty situation.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- ThomPete 13y ago
  Are you serious? Did you read the article? Do you understand the difference between not being poor and able to pay your bills and then being poor and not able to pay the bills?
zanny 13y ago
Also, I'm confused how you were able to have a license and be considered fit to drive, but could quality for disability and not have a job. I'm an advocate for basic income, but I can still call bullshit in the status quo.
- bdcravens 13y ago
  Perhaps they can't sit for more than an hour, but can make short trips. However, I completely feel you. I have CF, and I can't tell you how many people have told me I should get on disability instead of being being a developer. As if work is a penalty in life, and anyone who can get out of it should.
- billyjobob 13y ago
  Not all disabled people are cripples. Just because you occasionally see someone with an obvious physical injury in a wheel chair does not mean that is representative of the vast majority of disabled who have hidden disabilities. For example, many physical conditions vary from day to day - one day she may be well enough to drive, the next she will have to rest in bed. Then there are the millions with mental disabilities who may even function perfectly well most of the time except for the days they try to kill themselves. Sure they 'could' work, but no employer would ever take them on, so they must live on disability.
- ceejayoz 13y ago
  Have you honestly never seen someone park in a handicapped parking spot?
  - zanny 13y ago
    You can be handicapped in locomotion but still able to drive. You can also have one of those fliers and not be able to collect disability so you never have to work again. The point is, how can someone who is capable of driving be given money that is meant for people incapacitated and unable to contribute to society?
    - ceejayoz 13y ago
bdcravens 13y ago
I grew up very poor; my family had no car. During the entirety of my childhood, we either walked to the store, or paid the local "taxi service" (in smaller places, it's not a traditional taxi, but someone who operates out of home/small office answering calls) $5 for a ride (it'd probably be $15-20 today, but the idea that you can't survive without a car is a bit silly, even in small towns)
- awendt 13y ago
  The article is not about the fact that you can't survive without a car. However, having a traffic violation send you to jail for several years is an excellent intro for an article about modern debtors' prisons and the whole support apparatus around them.
noarchy 13y ago
>For me, this whole story hinged on that one time she got caught driving without a license: there's no reason she should have been unaware of the consequences. Consequences such as, "People wound up in jail for months without ever seeing a judge." Do you expect these kinds of consequences in the United States? The lady in this case may have fared slightly better, with her time in jail coming in at seven weeks: "Ford spent seven weeks in jail, during which time her debt grew into the thousands. She did not, however, see the inside of a courtroom."
emperorcezar 13y ago
She still didn't deserve indefinite detention.
- TomGullen 13y ago
  Not saying I disagree necessarially, but if she has no license doesn't that mean insurance wont pay up if she crashes into someone and causes serious injury?
agwa 13y ago
This article is not about her. It's about the government of Harpersville, Alabama and their de facto debtor's prison system. It's immaterial what she did because nothing excuses throwing someone in jail indefinitely for not paying a fine they can't afford, driving up their debts by charging them for every day they spend in jail, denying them due process, etc.
- delinka 13y ago
  Then it's a shame that the author led with this particular woman. My opinion on the "debtor's prison" subject is that non-payment of fines should never result in jail time. Other punishments perhaps (revocation of license, liens against property, etc), but never jail time. Nor should interest and penalties be permitted to eternally inflate those original fines. And the privatization angle ... these companies need to be heavily regulated. I could go on and on about that one...
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
macspoofing 13y ago
You completely missed the point. First the anecdote was merely a segue to the core thesis of the article - that is the dubious way certain counties levy and collect fines. Second the article didn't actually claim the woman was innocent because again, that wasn't the point. You seem to have stopped reading after the first paragraph.
pessimizer 13y ago
You're completely missing the point. Putting her in years of indentured servitude to the state and some third party contractor doesn't mitigate the chance that she'll hit you while driving uninsured at all. In fact, while scrambling to get the money, she's going to be forced to make the decision often between driving and hoping she doesn't get caught, or not paying her fee and going to jail. It's amazing that someone could read this horrible tale and can only see how it affects themselves. How much oppressive klepto-state will you support to prevent the slightest chance that the situation of the poor might affect you and yours?
- omegaworks 13y ago
  >It's amazing that someone could read this horrible tale and can only see how it affects themselves. We with wealth don't like it when radical wealth imbalance affects our lifestyles. We like to pretend that we earned our wealth purely through honest, good, hard work, and that everyone can be where we are if they just try. We also like to pretend that everyone gets equal treatment under the law, so why not subject that person to the same treatment I would be subject to? We live in a truly wonderful country.
some_guy_there 13y ago
$745 for a traffic ticket sounds a bit too much. Punishment for any crime should be proportional to the crime committed. I don't think anyone is asking for no punishment for violating traffic rules, but proportional punishment is hardly the intent of justice system in her town. Punish her to make sure that she does not repeats the same mistake again, which is what a lot of places in America do daily, without anyone needing to write an article about it.
kbenson 13y ago
I'd like more information before I can really make judgement about this person. What are the details of this 1997 (did I math that correctly?) car wreck? Is she at fault? Were there any settlements involved? What kind of injury does she have that keeps her from working? Can she learn to do something that doesn't affect her disability? Specifically, what injury prevents her working but allows her to drive? Why are you trying to judge the person? This whole article is about many more people than just her, but also specifically about the problems presented by private probation companies as a whole. What I don't understand is how, when someone makes a colossal mistake (especially one that we've all been educated about), anyone else would blame everyone but the mistaken. Was there any statement that she should not have been fined? Was there a cry that the legal system was unjust for pulling over people driving without a license? This is a story about people being taken advantage of. I saw no claims they were entirely innocent, just that they were put into a system that exacted much more punishment that they were likely due, and most likely legally due. For me, this whole story hinged on that one time she got caught driving without a license: there's no reason she should have been unaware of the consequences. For you, this whole story, about multiple people, officials, and cities, including the death of some individuals while they were incarcerated for failure to pay a fine, hinges on single person's single traffic stop and whether she was aware of the consequences? Which consequences would those be, the ones where she is supposes to pay a fine, or the ones where she goes to jail because she is incapable of paying that fine and stays there for over 100 days without seeing a judge?

by delinka 13y ago

tinbad 13y ago

This, this and a hundred times this. I'm sick of being pushed into feeling sorry for people in a shitty situation, for whatever reason but mostly for being bad at making (life) decisions. I got rear-ended recently by a driver who ran off the 'crime scene'. He was probably uninsured, but we'll never know since I didn't catch his license plate. I just bought a brand new car and damage was substantial. I ended up taking the hit. I'm not poor, but I ain't rich either. Driving uninsured (and without license!) means you're screwing other people for being in a shitty situation.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
ThomPete 13y ago
Are you serious? Did you read the article? Do you understand the difference between not being poor and able to pay your bills and then being poor and not able to pay the bills?

zanny 13y ago

Also, I'm confused how you were able to have a license and be considered fit to drive, but could quality for disability and not have a job. I'm an advocate for basic income, but I can still call bullshit in the status quo.

bdcravens 13y ago
Perhaps they can't sit for more than an hour, but can make short trips. However, I completely feel you. I have CF, and I can't tell you how many people have told me I should get on disability instead of being being a developer. As if work is a penalty in life, and anyone who can get out of it should.
billyjobob 13y ago
Not all disabled people are cripples. Just because you occasionally see someone with an obvious physical injury in a wheel chair does not mean that is representative of the vast majority of disabled who have hidden disabilities. For example, many physical conditions vary from day to day - one day she may be well enough to drive, the next she will have to rest in bed. Then there are the millions with mental disabilities who may even function perfectly well most of the time except for the days they try to kill themselves. Sure they 'could' work, but no employer would ever take them on, so they must live on disability.
ceejayoz 13y ago
Have you honestly never seen someone park in a handicapped parking spot?
- zanny 13y ago
  You can be handicapped in locomotion but still able to drive. You can also have one of those fliers and not be able to collect disability so you never have to work again. The point is, how can someone who is capable of driving be given money that is meant for people incapacitated and unable to contribute to society?
  - ceejayoz 13y ago

bdcravens 13y ago

I grew up very poor; my family had no car. During the entirety of my childhood, we either walked to the store, or paid the local "taxi service" (in smaller places, it's not a traditional taxi, but someone who operates out of home/small office answering calls) $5 for a ride (it'd probably be $15-20 today, but the idea that you can't survive without a car is a bit silly, even in small towns)

awendt 13y ago
The article is not about the fact that you can't survive without a car. However, having a traffic violation send you to jail for several years is an excellent intro for an article about modern debtors' prisons and the whole support apparatus around them.

noarchy 13y ago

>For me, this whole story hinged on that one time she got caught driving without a license: there's no reason she should have been unaware of the consequences. Consequences such as, "People wound up in jail for months without ever seeing a judge." Do you expect these kinds of consequences in the United States? The lady in this case may have fared slightly better, with her time in jail coming in at seven weeks: "Ford spent seven weeks in jail, during which time her debt grew into the thousands. She did not, however, see the inside of a courtroom."

emperorcezar 13y ago

She still didn't deserve indefinite detention.

TomGullen 13y ago
Not saying I disagree necessarially, but if she has no license doesn't that mean insurance wont pay up if she crashes into someone and causes serious injury?

agwa 13y ago

This article is not about her. It's about the government of Harpersville, Alabama and their de facto debtor's prison system. It's immaterial what she did because nothing excuses throwing someone in jail indefinitely for not paying a fine they can't afford, driving up their debts by charging them for every day they spend in jail, denying them due process, etc.

delinka 13y ago
Then it's a shame that the author led with this particular woman. My opinion on the "debtor's prison" subject is that non-payment of fines should never result in jail time. Other punishments perhaps (revocation of license, liens against property, etc), but never jail time. Nor should interest and penalties be permitted to eternally inflate those original fines. And the privatization angle ... these companies need to be heavily regulated. I could go on and on about that one...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

macspoofing 13y ago

You completely missed the point. First the anecdote was merely a segue to the core thesis of the article - that is the dubious way certain counties levy and collect fines. Second the article didn't actually claim the woman was innocent because again, that wasn't the point. You seem to have stopped reading after the first paragraph.

pessimizer 13y ago

You're completely missing the point. Putting her in years of indentured servitude to the state and some third party contractor doesn't mitigate the chance that she'll hit you while driving uninsured at all. In fact, while scrambling to get the money, she's going to be forced to make the decision often between driving and hoping she doesn't get caught, or not paying her fee and going to jail. It's amazing that someone could read this horrible tale and can only see how it affects themselves. How much oppressive klepto-state will you support to prevent the slightest chance that the situation of the poor might affect you and yours?

omegaworks 13y ago
>It's amazing that someone could read this horrible tale and can only see how it affects themselves. We with wealth don't like it when radical wealth imbalance affects our lifestyles. We like to pretend that we earned our wealth purely through honest, good, hard work, and that everyone can be where we are if they just try. We also like to pretend that everyone gets equal treatment under the law, so why not subject that person to the same treatment I would be subject to? We live in a truly wonderful country.

some_guy_there 13y ago

$745 for a traffic ticket sounds a bit too much. Punishment for any crime should be proportional to the crime committed. I don't think anyone is asking for no punishment for violating traffic rules, but proportional punishment is hardly the intent of justice system in her town. Punish her to make sure that she does not repeats the same mistake again, which is what a lot of places in America do daily, without anyone needing to write an article about it.

kbenson 13y ago

I'd like more information before I can really make judgement about this person. What are the details of this 1997 (did I math that correctly?) car wreck? Is she at fault? Were there any settlements involved? What kind of injury does she have that keeps her from working? Can she learn to do something that doesn't affect her disability? Specifically, what injury prevents her working but allows her to drive? Why are you trying to judge the person? This whole article is about many more people than just her, but also specifically about the problems presented by private probation companies as a whole. What I don't understand is how, when someone makes a colossal mistake (especially one that we've all been educated about), anyone else would blame everyone but the mistaken. Was there any statement that she should not have been fined? Was there a cry that the legal system was unjust for pulling over people driving without a license? This is a story about people being taken advantage of. I saw no claims they were entirely innocent, just that they were put into a system that exacted much more punishment that they were likely due, and most likely legally due. For me, this whole story hinged on that one time she got caught driving without a license: there's no reason she should have been unaware of the consequences. For you, this whole story, about multiple people, officials, and cities, including the death of some individuals while they were incarcerated for failure to pay a fine, hinges on single person's single traffic stop and whether she was aware of the consequences? Which consequences would those be, the ones where she is supposes to pay a fine, or the ones where she goes to jail because she is incapable of paying that fine and stays there for over 100 days without seeing a judge?