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I have to admit that this whole episode had given a small doubt on if my company can have an inclusive environment. I have very conservative religious and poli

I have to admit that this whole episode had given a small doubt on if my company can have an inclusive environment. I have very conservative religious and political views - but I recognize that people have good and amazing attributes regardless of my opinion on their personal lives. I enjoy being working (and friendships) with diverse people who challenge my beliefs, and who I can help in meaningful ways despite our differences. My pause comes from my wondering if the company develops a significant group of people who won't let my own personal beliefs remain separate from the work environment. I'll hopefully forget this sad episode in a few short weeks, so I doubt anything will change in my heart for the worse.

danhak 13y ago
Having personal beliefs is fine. Taking away the freedom of others is not. You don't have to back proposition 8 to believe homosexuality is immoral, just like you don't have to outlaw pork in order to keep kosher.
- akerl_ 13y ago
  Telling someone that they can hold views that differ from yours as long as they never show those views or act in support of them seems like one of the very arguments that the equal rights movements are fighting against.
  - danhak 13y ago
    Mr. Eich and others are completely free to act according their views on homosexuality, vis a vis their own sexual activities and the way they may choose to raise their families. Restricting the freedom of others is where their freedom to act ends.
    - akerl_ 13y ago
      That is pretty dramatically false. He has the same freedoms you have: to participate in the political process, to express his views, and to obey the laws. He didn't go out and beat up people who he dislikes, he donated money to a political cause that you and I disagree with.
      - brighteyes 13y ago
        Furthermore, while 95% of us on HN (including me) support gay marriage, the fact is that over half the population of California had the same opinion as Eich, back in 2008. He supported a very mainstream position. Even if it is not mainstream on HN or in silicon valley or on tech news sites, it is mainstream when you look a little outside. I oppose that position as I said above, but because it is held by about half of the population, we can't just refuse to work with anyone holding that position.
        justinreeves 13y ago
        >over half the population of California had the same opinion as Eich, back in 2008. Well, over half of the population that voted had the same opinion. Voter turnout was around 60%, iirc. Additionally, even if 60% of people held the same views, it's still possible to choose not to work for them.
natrius 13y ago
Some political views are unacceptable. If you think that the government should prevent people of different ethnicities from getting married, I don't want to work with you. If you don't think the matter at hand falls in the same bucket, I don't want to work with you. We're not talking about disagreeing on tax policy here.
- brighteyes 13y ago
  Are you saying you consider the political views of almost all Republicans "unacceptable", and you wouldn't work in the same place as them? Because - sadly, because I agree with you that they are wrong - over half of California opposed gay marriage in 2008 (and while things have improved somewhat, they remain far from where they should be). They are wrong, but their position is a mainstream one. I'm not sure refusing to work with them is practical. (It might be in a small company, especially in ideologically uniform regions like the bay area, but not in general.)
- bzbarsky 13y ago
  I accept that some some political views are unacceptable to you. Do you do background checks on people you might work with to see whether they hold such views? Or do you just avoid working with people about whom you found out by accident that they hold such views? That is, are you actively making sure that none of the people around you hold the views you find unacceptable, or is it more of a don't ask don't tell kind of policy, where you don't care if people have unacceptable views as long as they don't mention them in your hearing?
chroma 13y ago
From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7201428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7201428: I'm a trained nuclear physicist, and a biblical literalist. You're probably a talented, hard-working, good person. I wish you no ill. In fact, all else equal, I'd prefer you to lead a happy, successful life. But I'm as likely to hire you as I am to hire a believer in alien abductions. Such beliefs are evidence of a person's thought patterns and general mental stability. Even if otherwise competent, hiring would be risky. If ever "social fit" were an excuse not to hire, this would qualify. I'm sorry if that sounds bigoted or close-minded, but beliefs affect behavior. This is true no matter how much one tries to keep quiet at work. Edit: I realize this is religious discrimination, which is illegal in the US. Obviously I would never tell the person the true reason for not hiring. To those who think this is abhorrent: Would you hire a Scientologist? How about a member of the Westboro Baptist Church? We all draw a line somewhere.
- azakai 13y ago
  I'm an atheist (like I assume you are), but what you just described is straightforward religious discrimination, which is illegal in the US and many other places, for good reason.
  - chroma 13y ago
    I'm honestly curious: What's the good reason? We discriminate based on beliefs all the time. Why exempt religious ones? I'm fine with my own anti-religious views being cause for not hiring me. (In fact, it's perfectly legal for employers to do so today.)
    - azakai 13y ago
      > We discriminate based on beliefs all the time. We do? I certainly hope we don't. Discrimination is wrong regardless of whether its on beliefs or attributes. Maybe you meant another word than "discrimination" here, or I am misunderstanding you somehow?
      - 13y ago

danhak 13y ago

Having personal beliefs is fine. Taking away the freedom of others is not. You don't have to back proposition 8 to believe homosexuality is immoral, just like you don't have to outlaw pork in order to keep kosher.

akerl_ 13y ago
Telling someone that they can hold views that differ from yours as long as they never show those views or act in support of them seems like one of the very arguments that the equal rights movements are fighting against.
- danhak 13y ago
  Mr. Eich and others are completely free to act according their views on homosexuality, vis a vis their own sexual activities and the way they may choose to raise their families. Restricting the freedom of others is where their freedom to act ends.
  - akerl_ 13y ago
    That is pretty dramatically false. He has the same freedoms you have: to participate in the political process, to express his views, and to obey the laws. He didn't go out and beat up people who he dislikes, he donated money to a political cause that you and I disagree with.
    - brighteyes 13y ago
      Furthermore, while 95% of us on HN (including me) support gay marriage, the fact is that over half the population of California had the same opinion as Eich, back in 2008. He supported a very mainstream position. Even if it is not mainstream on HN or in silicon valley or on tech news sites, it is mainstream when you look a little outside. I oppose that position as I said above, but because it is held by about half of the population, we can't just refuse to work with anyone holding that position.
      - justinreeves 13y ago
        >over half the population of California had the same opinion as Eich, back in 2008. Well, over half of the population that voted had the same opinion. Voter turnout was around 60%, iirc. Additionally, even if 60% of people held the same views, it's still possible to choose not to work for them.

natrius 13y ago

Some political views are unacceptable. If you think that the government should prevent people of different ethnicities from getting married, I don't want to work with you. If you don't think the matter at hand falls in the same bucket, I don't want to work with you. We're not talking about disagreeing on tax policy here.

brighteyes 13y ago
Are you saying you consider the political views of almost all Republicans "unacceptable", and you wouldn't work in the same place as them? Because - sadly, because I agree with you that they are wrong - over half of California opposed gay marriage in 2008 (and while things have improved somewhat, they remain far from where they should be). They are wrong, but their position is a mainstream one. I'm not sure refusing to work with them is practical. (It might be in a small company, especially in ideologically uniform regions like the bay area, but not in general.)
bzbarsky 13y ago
I accept that some some political views are unacceptable to you. Do you do background checks on people you might work with to see whether they hold such views? Or do you just avoid working with people about whom you found out by accident that they hold such views? That is, are you actively making sure that none of the people around you hold the views you find unacceptable, or is it more of a don't ask don't tell kind of policy, where you don't care if people have unacceptable views as long as they don't mention them in your hearing?

chroma 13y ago

From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7201428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7201428: I'm a trained nuclear physicist, and a biblical literalist. You're probably a talented, hard-working, good person. I wish you no ill. In fact, all else equal, I'd prefer you to lead a happy, successful life. But I'm as likely to hire you as I am to hire a believer in alien abductions. Such beliefs are evidence of a person's thought patterns and general mental stability. Even if otherwise competent, hiring would be risky. If ever "social fit" were an excuse not to hire, this would qualify. I'm sorry if that sounds bigoted or close-minded, but beliefs affect behavior. This is true no matter how much one tries to keep quiet at work. Edit: I realize this is religious discrimination, which is illegal in the US. Obviously I would never tell the person the true reason for not hiring. To those who think this is abhorrent: Would you hire a Scientologist? How about a member of the Westboro Baptist Church? We all draw a line somewhere.

azakai 13y ago
I'm an atheist (like I assume you are), but what you just described is straightforward religious discrimination, which is illegal in the US and many other places, for good reason.
- chroma 13y ago
  I'm honestly curious: What's the good reason? We discriminate based on beliefs all the time. Why exempt religious ones? I'm fine with my own anti-religious views being cause for not hiring me. (In fact, it's perfectly legal for employers to do so today.)
  - azakai 13y ago
    > We discriminate based on beliefs all the time. We do? I certainly hope we don't. Discrimination is wrong regardless of whether its on beliefs or attributes. Maybe you meant another word than "discrimination" here, or I am misunderstanding you somehow?
    - 13y ago