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I'm honestly curious. Is a large portion of the Hacker News audience just less operationally experienced compared to the programming side of things? It seems li

I'm honestly curious. Is a large portion of the Hacker News audience just less operationally experienced compared to the programming side of things? It seems like Linux 101 lists like this make it to the top of HN pretty regularly but I'd equate this to a post about Python that listed for/while loops, if statements, how to create a class, etc. Am I blinded by my own experiences or do very basic Linux seem to do very well on this site.

elbear 13y ago
I think that is the case. Even though the name is Hacker News, I suspect that most visitors are interested in the startup/business side of things, even though there is an important core of technical people.
skeltoac 13y ago
How long were you involved with Linux before you knew everything in that list?
- serf 13y ago
  two or three years as a casual user. a seperate issue : if you're going to make lists like this, please don't include distribution specific commands (like yum or apt-get) on 'linux' cheatsheets. they belong on redhat or ubuntu cheatsheets, respectively. Similarly irritating : the use of distribution specific package names.
  - colechristensen 13y ago
    A good list will mention the alternatives (even if it doesn't explain all of them), but still include them. There are a lot of tasks which one ought to be familiar with which aren't anywhere near cross platform, and keeping your list to very widely available tools will leave huge gaps in your knowledge and makes for rather short lists.
- chadillac 13y ago
  I'm willing to bet there isn't but a handful of people in this community that "knows everything on that list", remembering everything on that list is... well, unneeded? 9/10 times when I'm using a command that isn't part of my "daily list" I'll need to consult man pages and/or Google. I've used xargs hundreds of times, but depending on when I used it last, I can never remember if I need -0 or not, and is it $1 or {} or wait, no no, I'm using awk, so it's $1, and I need to changes something... is it needle, haystack, replacement or... hell, I'm not even sure if it's substr or just sub... errrr. Not to mention some of these are distro specific, in some you use service name start, in others it's /etc/init.d/service start. Some it's adduser, others it's useradd, etc. It's relative to the distro a lot of the times... are the files in /usr/opt/ or /opt/... or maybe they're in /usr/local/opt/... Also they list stuff like locate, but not updatedb. Not a single mention of dd or shred or /etc/resolv.conf or netcat (I fucking love netcat!) or unzip (far more likely to need to unzip an archive than add a user in your day to day life). We're not command libraries, we're duct tape mechanics. http://xkcd.com/1168/ http://xkcd.com/1168/ edit: if you're interested in learning more... I honestly can't recommend this book enough. http://www.amazon.com/Linux-System-Administration-Handbook-Edition/dp/0131480057 http://www.amazon.com/Linux-System-Administration-Handbook-E...
  - colechristensen 13y ago
    I don't consider myself in any elite minority for it, but I feel I have strong familiarity with everything on that list. While maybe a bit of curating might be necessary, _every_ developer whose code comes anywhere near a Unix descendant should be just as familiar to be considered anything above 'junior'. Most teenagers are perfectly capable of this understanding. I find my job wearing a DevOps hat to be very often much more difficult than it ought to be because so many programmers clearly don't understand the OS layer they're running on (both when supporting internal developers at various places which I've called $work, and using OSS and commercial software in that role) There's no shame in running `man xargs` to get the syntax just right (we're not dictionaries) but general knowledge of what those tools are and how to use them are _essential_ to being a good developer... this is an essence too often neglected by universities and professionals.
    - 13y ago
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  While I find your question specious, there were about four commands I wasn't immediately familiar with there (some are somewhat distro / choice specific with other alternatives being present), and that's with 17 years professional experience. I'd run across the vast majority within my first year or two (and had been using others for years on Unix systems). That said: some of the commands I use most often are exceptionally basic. And in the case of others, I'm learning things all the time. Say, such as mplayer's constant-pitch video playback speed argument: http://redd.it/21qe7i http://redd.it/21qe7i
chadillac 13y ago
I feel like OS X has a big hand in this discussion. Most developers I know now use OS X and only touch it's Unix underpinnings when required to do so. They don't use SSH so much, they'll use sshfs or some other remote file system setup, they'll use a git GUI in their IDE and a (S)FTP client more often than not. The dev community over the past few years seems to have embraced nix styling in their projects more and more so I think en mass people are getting more exposure to the CLI and therefore, getting more curious about what else it can do, leading to another blog post about nix commands, how to use them, etc. The irony is I remember when people gave me shit for running OS X back in 2001 and being "stupid for not running windows" and "making my life harder". The schadenfreude of a Windows user watching me when something didn't just work automatically or I had to boot up VirtualPC back then was far from subtle and peppered with reminders I could "just run windows dude". Now days, it's still there, but it's much more common and much stronger coming from a Mac user than any Windows users I've encountered as of late.
nknighthb 13y ago
Most developers I know do not have a solid grasp of command line usage, regardless of platform or age. It is at least as painful watching them use a shell as it is watching the stereotypical grandma use a computer in general.
dredmorbius 13y ago
That might make a good poll question. In my experience, systems admins tend to be the most familiar and comfortable on the shell, though even there, mileage varies markedly. Devs can vary a lot, I find skills rare among UI / design types, even those (most nowadays) using Macs, and for administrative / project management types, it's often very little. Based largely on casual observation, mind. The other point is that specificity of knowledge can very greatly, and IT is all about specialization. Even people who are good at multiple tools often have their limits, and I'll see specialization in development, databases, networking, build/release management, QA, systems development (as opposed to app or UI work), and related specialties such as networking and others. Specific skillsets too are often accidents of opportunity and history -- having moved through a specific shop or acquired a particular skill is very much dependent on where you've been, much less a mark of innate ability. One recent team I worked with had access to a set of highly complementary talents: very strong systems knowledge, database, overall app and enterprise architecture, and a networking consultant. Resolving a number of issues and enhancements turned out to rely very much on each individual's strengths, where what any given member could provide by way of easily accomplished tasks (seconds or less) would have set the rest of the team hours or days. What I find particularly damaging is environments in which expertise is guarded while at the same time begrudging others for what they didn't know (and not providing for knowledge transfer) generally leads to negative engagements. This is almost always present in part (nobody knows everything or has time to teach everyone), but in particular cases has been a very strong undercurrent.
spindritf 13y ago
post about Python that listed for/while loops, if statements, how to create a class, etc. A post like that would also make HN front page if the presentation or premise were attractive enough. See http://learnxinyminutes.com/ http://learnxinyminutes.com/ which has been featured here multiple times, including once for its Python docs https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5959502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5959502 with 149 points. We simply like that stuff. There's always someone who doesn't know, or something you missed.

elbear 13y ago

I think that is the case. Even though the name is Hacker News, I suspect that most visitors are interested in the startup/business side of things, even though there is an important core of technical people.

skeltoac 13y ago

How long were you involved with Linux before you knew everything in that list?

serf 13y ago
two or three years as a casual user. a seperate issue : if you're going to make lists like this, please don't include distribution specific commands (like yum or apt-get) on 'linux' cheatsheets. they belong on redhat or ubuntu cheatsheets, respectively. Similarly irritating : the use of distribution specific package names.
- colechristensen 13y ago
  A good list will mention the alternatives (even if it doesn't explain all of them), but still include them. There are a lot of tasks which one ought to be familiar with which aren't anywhere near cross platform, and keeping your list to very widely available tools will leave huge gaps in your knowledge and makes for rather short lists.
chadillac 13y ago
I'm willing to bet there isn't but a handful of people in this community that "knows everything on that list", remembering everything on that list is... well, unneeded? 9/10 times when I'm using a command that isn't part of my "daily list" I'll need to consult man pages and/or Google. I've used xargs hundreds of times, but depending on when I used it last, I can never remember if I need -0 or not, and is it $1 or {} or wait, no no, I'm using awk, so it's $1, and I need to changes something... is it needle, haystack, replacement or... hell, I'm not even sure if it's substr or just sub... errrr. Not to mention some of these are distro specific, in some you use service name start, in others it's /etc/init.d/service start. Some it's adduser, others it's useradd, etc. It's relative to the distro a lot of the times... are the files in /usr/opt/ or /opt/... or maybe they're in /usr/local/opt/... Also they list stuff like locate, but not updatedb. Not a single mention of dd or shred or /etc/resolv.conf or netcat (I fucking love netcat!) or unzip (far more likely to need to unzip an archive than add a user in your day to day life). We're not command libraries, we're duct tape mechanics. http://xkcd.com/1168/ http://xkcd.com/1168/ edit: if you're interested in learning more... I honestly can't recommend this book enough. http://www.amazon.com/Linux-System-Administration-Handbook-Edition/dp/0131480057 http://www.amazon.com/Linux-System-Administration-Handbook-E...
- colechristensen 13y ago
  I don't consider myself in any elite minority for it, but I feel I have strong familiarity with everything on that list. While maybe a bit of curating might be necessary, _every_ developer whose code comes anywhere near a Unix descendant should be just as familiar to be considered anything above 'junior'. Most teenagers are perfectly capable of this understanding. I find my job wearing a DevOps hat to be very often much more difficult than it ought to be because so many programmers clearly don't understand the OS layer they're running on (both when supporting internal developers at various places which I've called $work, and using OSS and commercial software in that role) There's no shame in running `man xargs` to get the syntax just right (we're not dictionaries) but general knowledge of what those tools are and how to use them are _essential_ to being a good developer... this is an essence too often neglected by universities and professionals.
  - 13y ago
dredmorbius 13y ago
While I find your question specious, there were about four commands I wasn't immediately familiar with there (some are somewhat distro / choice specific with other alternatives being present), and that's with 17 years professional experience. I'd run across the vast majority within my first year or two (and had been using others for years on Unix systems). That said: some of the commands I use most often are exceptionally basic. And in the case of others, I'm learning things all the time. Say, such as mplayer's constant-pitch video playback speed argument: http://redd.it/21qe7i http://redd.it/21qe7i

chadillac 13y ago

I feel like OS X has a big hand in this discussion. Most developers I know now use OS X and only touch it's Unix underpinnings when required to do so. They don't use SSH so much, they'll use sshfs or some other remote file system setup, they'll use a git GUI in their IDE and a (S)FTP client more often than not. The dev community over the past few years seems to have embraced nix styling in their projects more and more so I think en mass people are getting more exposure to the CLI and therefore, getting more curious about what else it can do, leading to another blog post about nix commands, how to use them, etc. The irony is I remember when people gave me shit for running OS X back in 2001 and being "stupid for not running windows" and "making my life harder". The schadenfreude of a Windows user watching me when something didn't just work automatically or I had to boot up VirtualPC back then was far from subtle and peppered with reminders I could "just run windows dude". Now days, it's still there, but it's much more common and much stronger coming from a Mac user than any Windows users I've encountered as of late.

nknighthb 13y ago

Most developers I know do not have a solid grasp of command line usage, regardless of platform or age. It is at least as painful watching them use a shell as it is watching the stereotypical grandma use a computer in general.

dredmorbius 13y ago

That might make a good poll question. In my experience, systems admins tend to be the most familiar and comfortable on the shell, though even there, mileage varies markedly. Devs can vary a lot, I find skills rare among UI / design types, even those (most nowadays) using Macs, and for administrative / project management types, it's often very little. Based largely on casual observation, mind. The other point is that specificity of knowledge can very greatly, and IT is all about specialization. Even people who are good at multiple tools often have their limits, and I'll see specialization in development, databases, networking, build/release management, QA, systems development (as opposed to app or UI work), and related specialties such as networking and others. Specific skillsets too are often accidents of opportunity and history -- having moved through a specific shop or acquired a particular skill is very much dependent on where you've been, much less a mark of innate ability. One recent team I worked with had access to a set of highly complementary talents: very strong systems knowledge, database, overall app and enterprise architecture, and a networking consultant. Resolving a number of issues and enhancements turned out to rely very much on each individual's strengths, where what any given member could provide by way of easily accomplished tasks (seconds or less) would have set the rest of the team hours or days. What I find particularly damaging is environments in which expertise is guarded while at the same time begrudging others for what they didn't know (and not providing for knowledge transfer) generally leads to negative engagements. This is almost always present in part (nobody knows everything or has time to teach everyone), but in particular cases has been a very strong undercurrent.

spindritf 13y ago

post about Python that listed for/while loops, if statements, how to create a class, etc. A post like that would also make HN front page if the presentation or premise were attractive enough. See http://learnxinyminutes.com/ http://learnxinyminutes.com/ which has been featured here multiple times, including once for its Python docs https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5959502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5959502 with 149 points. We simply like that stuff. There's always someone who doesn't know, or something you missed.