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Gah, it didn't occur to me that the reason the Oculus sale was so expensive might have been patent-related. VR tech is not all that complicated. I mean really

Gah, it didn't occur to me that the reason the Oculus sale was so expensive might have been patent-related. VR tech is not all that complicated. I mean really, if protocols like HDMI and Thunderbolt weren't so complex, DRM and patent laden themselves, how hard is it to put an image on two screens and sync it to gyroscopes/ultrasonics/infrareds? This is college-senior-project level complexity. Software patents are such an obvious incumbrance to programmers, but I wonder if we should think about the toll that hardware patents are taking on innovation overall Maybe it’s time to take a stance against all patents. I’m hopeful that rapid prototyping might alleviate some of this because hardware could be open sourced and then people could assemble it themselves. Unfortunately they probably won’t be able to pay someone else to do it. That strikes me as fundamentally wrong and when the law doesn’t fit the public interest, we’ll probably see black market and bootleg manufacturing appear. We need 21st century solutions for intellectual property, when the vast majority of manufacturing is automated and even innovation itself has been augmented by machine learning. Otherwise I see the end of innovation and only the biggest megacorps being able to afford to play.

chamanbuga 13y ago
I'm with you on reforming patents. But how do you protects companies from copy cats? iPhone is released and some hardware manufacturer makes the exact same shell running Symbian instead. I'm not talking about copying the OS, but the hardware form factor. They represent a brand image as well.
- dabrowski 13y ago
  More competition is always good. Also, if iPhone's form factor is actually better, then it would only benefit customers if other companies would adopt it.
  - msherry 13y ago
    Sure, but I if as an inventor can't be guaranteed some protections for my work, for at least some period of time, I'm less likely to produce this better form factor in the first place, which is a net negative for consumers.
    - dabrowski 13y ago
      Perhaps. Some things are hard to copy though and would take time to reproduce by others (if ever). And how do you know it would result in a net loss for consumers? I guess by assuming that iPhone's form factor would not get invented, if others were allowed to copy it. But how do you know that it wouldn't? And what about all the other things that would get invented, because people were allowed to reverse engineer stuff or develop other, currently patent protected technologies?
- zackmorris 13y ago
  I think probably the easiest starting point is recognizing that innovation iterates more rapidly than a century ago and shortening patents to perhaps 3 or 5 years. We need immediate bans on process patents like software and biotech (since finance patents are already banned, I believe? So this is not a big stretch). My gut feeling on iOS vs Symbian (running on similar hardware) is that if it's so easy to copy something like that, then iOS is only being propped up by the law anyway. It's probably not doing society much good overall. Maybe a route forward is to allow competition, but require that if hardware is licensed by something like the GPL, then some nominal fee would have to be paid to the rights holder. Society would have to vote on what that should be, and it would be across the board, perhaps 5% to 25%, something on the level of capital gains or VAT? It would be kind of like generic drugs, where other companies would have a hard time competing because typical profits margins might be in the 15% range, so they couldn’t afford to advertise. Otherwise my feeling now is that we’re actively encouraging monopolies and it just feels really anti-entrepreneurial.
paulbaumgart 13y ago
Patents are a fine idea in principle. There's little doubt that they promote innovation in pharmaceuticals, for example. The problem arises when the patents last much longer than the "innovation cycle" in an industry. As software takes over the world, we're seeing cycle times go down in many fields, but patent laws aren't keeping up with technological reality.
- _delirium 13y ago
  Yes, shorter patents would address a decent number of the issues. To pick one area I'm somewhat familiar with, a lot of the patents in digital-audio synthesis were initially reasonable, in my opinion. Furthermore, the system largely "worked" as it was supposed to to incentivize innovation and ensure that commercializers of technology paid some royalties to those developing it. A research group like Stanford's CCRMA would develop a new synthesis method, patent it, and license the patent to a commercializer such as Yamaha, who put it in their synthesizers and paid a royalty. Without patents, there would be a strong incentive to do this monetization via keeping things secret instead, rather than openly publishing them somewhere that Yamaha could just read. The part where it starts seeming unreasonable is when a 15-year-old synthesis method, which is by that time ancient and textbook-standard material, is still patented.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    20 year doesn't seem like such an awful term for a patent. You think 15 years is too long, no doubt there are other people who thin 10 or 5 are too long, just as there must be some people who think it should be 25 or 30 years. I feel like 20 years has stuck because it's approximately the length of one human generation.
    - lugg 13y ago
      What on earth gives you the idea that a generation is a good measure of time for a monopoly? Patents are intended to promote innovation for society not give protection to a racket. The only reason to give people a monopoly on production is to allow those who invested in the invention and research to reimburse the costs of research and development to allow for further investment in innovation. After the time period the patent / copy rights should be released to the public domain so that everyone may benefit from cheap economy of scale production. The only reason I could think you feel this way is that it is all you've known. In most cases a couple of years worth of profits from monopoly should suffice. In reality it depends on how much was spent on the initial innovation.
dragonbonheur 13y ago
It's two images for two screens: one for your left eye, one for your right.
sweeney2014 13y ago
> Software patents are such an obvious incumbrance to programmers true for those looking to copy or re-implement something they see from others. For programmers looking to innovate or do something completely new and need a way to fund it - completely the opposite. Patents provide the programmer support in convincing investors to fork over their cash since smart investors recognize the R&D will even in the worst case scenario (e.g. startup goes bankrupt) result in a patent which can be transferable or monetized. This is a perfect example. The 80+ issued patents and 53+ pending patents have provided the original investors a return on their investments. The engineers got funded and got to work on what they wanted, while the investors got rewarded. Both are satisfied and will likely continue on again.
- _puk 13y ago
  The sheer number of patents involved, and the generality of said patents is what discourages future innovation. It's a complete first man advantage, anyone coming after that has to deal with the fact that 130+ patents already exist. Sure, some of these are probably extremely valid, but seriously, 130+? So we've got some revolutionary new technique that allows real-time visualisation direct onto the user's retina, your brain can't distinguish it from reality.. Yeah, but the user is seeing something that's not physically present? Got that one covered. Pay up.
  - sweeney2014 13y ago
    Patents block copying only exactly what's covered by the Claims and thereby encourage finding alternatives or develop new ways. Society benefits from having alternatives to choose from.
superdude 13y ago
>How hard is it to put an image on two screens and sync it to gyroscopes/ultrasonics/infrareds? This is college-senior-project level complexity. Hard.

chamanbuga 13y ago

I'm with you on reforming patents. But how do you protects companies from copy cats? iPhone is released and some hardware manufacturer makes the exact same shell running Symbian instead. I'm not talking about copying the OS, but the hardware form factor. They represent a brand image as well.

dabrowski 13y ago
More competition is always good. Also, if iPhone's form factor is actually better, then it would only benefit customers if other companies would adopt it.
- msherry 13y ago
  Sure, but I if as an inventor can't be guaranteed some protections for my work, for at least some period of time, I'm less likely to produce this better form factor in the first place, which is a net negative for consumers.
  - dabrowski 13y ago
    Perhaps. Some things are hard to copy though and would take time to reproduce by others (if ever). And how do you know it would result in a net loss for consumers? I guess by assuming that iPhone's form factor would not get invented, if others were allowed to copy it. But how do you know that it wouldn't? And what about all the other things that would get invented, because people were allowed to reverse engineer stuff or develop other, currently patent protected technologies?
zackmorris 13y ago
I think probably the easiest starting point is recognizing that innovation iterates more rapidly than a century ago and shortening patents to perhaps 3 or 5 years. We need immediate bans on process patents like software and biotech (since finance patents are already banned, I believe? So this is not a big stretch). My gut feeling on iOS vs Symbian (running on similar hardware) is that if it's so easy to copy something like that, then iOS is only being propped up by the law anyway. It's probably not doing society much good overall. Maybe a route forward is to allow competition, but require that if hardware is licensed by something like the GPL, then some nominal fee would have to be paid to the rights holder. Society would have to vote on what that should be, and it would be across the board, perhaps 5% to 25%, something on the level of capital gains or VAT? It would be kind of like generic drugs, where other companies would have a hard time competing because typical profits margins might be in the 15% range, so they couldn’t afford to advertise. Otherwise my feeling now is that we’re actively encouraging monopolies and it just feels really anti-entrepreneurial.

paulbaumgart 13y ago

Patents are a fine idea in principle. There's little doubt that they promote innovation in pharmaceuticals, for example. The problem arises when the patents last much longer than the "innovation cycle" in an industry. As software takes over the world, we're seeing cycle times go down in many fields, but patent laws aren't keeping up with technological reality.

_delirium 13y ago
Yes, shorter patents would address a decent number of the issues. To pick one area I'm somewhat familiar with, a lot of the patents in digital-audio synthesis were initially reasonable, in my opinion. Furthermore, the system largely "worked" as it was supposed to to incentivize innovation and ensure that commercializers of technology paid some royalties to those developing it. A research group like Stanford's CCRMA would develop a new synthesis method, patent it, and license the patent to a commercializer such as Yamaha, who put it in their synthesizers and paid a royalty. Without patents, there would be a strong incentive to do this monetization via keeping things secret instead, rather than openly publishing them somewhere that Yamaha could just read. The part where it starts seeming unreasonable is when a 15-year-old synthesis method, which is by that time ancient and textbook-standard material, is still patented.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  20 year doesn't seem like such an awful term for a patent. You think 15 years is too long, no doubt there are other people who thin 10 or 5 are too long, just as there must be some people who think it should be 25 or 30 years. I feel like 20 years has stuck because it's approximately the length of one human generation.
  - lugg 13y ago
    What on earth gives you the idea that a generation is a good measure of time for a monopoly? Patents are intended to promote innovation for society not give protection to a racket. The only reason to give people a monopoly on production is to allow those who invested in the invention and research to reimburse the costs of research and development to allow for further investment in innovation. After the time period the patent / copy rights should be released to the public domain so that everyone may benefit from cheap economy of scale production. The only reason I could think you feel this way is that it is all you've known. In most cases a couple of years worth of profits from monopoly should suffice. In reality it depends on how much was spent on the initial innovation.

dragonbonheur 13y ago

It's two images for two screens: one for your left eye, one for your right.

sweeney2014 13y ago

> Software patents are such an obvious incumbrance to programmers true for those looking to copy or re-implement something they see from others. For programmers looking to innovate or do something completely new and need a way to fund it - completely the opposite. Patents provide the programmer support in convincing investors to fork over their cash since smart investors recognize the R&D will even in the worst case scenario (e.g. startup goes bankrupt) result in a patent which can be transferable or monetized. This is a perfect example. The 80+ issued patents and 53+ pending patents have provided the original investors a return on their investments. The engineers got funded and got to work on what they wanted, while the investors got rewarded. Both are satisfied and will likely continue on again.

_puk 13y ago
The sheer number of patents involved, and the generality of said patents is what discourages future innovation. It's a complete first man advantage, anyone coming after that has to deal with the fact that 130+ patents already exist. Sure, some of these are probably extremely valid, but seriously, 130+? So we've got some revolutionary new technique that allows real-time visualisation direct onto the user's retina, your brain can't distinguish it from reality.. Yeah, but the user is seeing something that's not physically present? Got that one covered. Pay up.
- sweeney2014 13y ago
  Patents block copying only exactly what's covered by the Claims and thereby encourage finding alternatives or develop new ways. Society benefits from having alternatives to choose from.

superdude 13y ago

>How hard is it to put an image on two screens and sync it to gyroscopes/ultrasonics/infrareds? This is college-senior-project level complexity. Hard.