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> "Which leads me to conclude that any new cryptocurrency would need to be launched by an organization that had the computing power to defend the currency (assu

> "Which leads me to conclude that any new cryptocurrency would need to be launched by an organization that had the computing power to defend the currency (assuming it follows resource-intensive mining paradigms like bitcoin et. al)" So, you're saying that there should be some kind of powerful institution that is capable of defending the currency against manipulation attempts if necessary and thus ensures a reasonable level of stability in said currency? This concept seems somewhat familiar, you might even consider it a crypto currency's Central Bank. What I find funny w.r.t. to BTC et al. is that people are slowly starting to find out that living in the currency equivalent of the Wild West is not as much fun as it sounds at first. First, there were calls for more government regulation and a higher level of accountability on the side of infrastructure operators and now even the idea of some entity defending the currency against attacks seems like an attractive prospect. My prediction is that at the end there will be an epiphany that our real world currency system is constructed the way it is for a reason. It may not be perfect, it certainly has some major flaws but at the end of the day it's still better than the alternatives.

zanny 13y ago
I've been in BTC trading for two years. Never has anything been wrong with btc proper, it is always with centralized businesses around it, with the exception of the double spend fork of the blockchain during that one version upgrade early on, which was a valuable lesson for future upgrades like the recent 0.9 transition, which went smoothly. And no, central banks are awful. That is one of the myriad reasons distributed compute power is what makes bitcoin strong. And ironically, central banks are autocratic and blockchains are democratic, while the systems that consistently produce the former are purported republics, and blockchains just come from no ideology or power structure, I guess anarchy. > My prediction is that at the end there will be an epiphany that our real world currency system is constructed the way it is for a reason. It may not be perfect, it certainly has some major flaws but at the end of the day it's still better than the alternatives. The current system is giving a monopoly on printing money without any backing store of value besides the confidence in the printer to a select few easily exploitable and corruptible appointed heads of central banks with no mechanism for the fair distribution of new funds. These banks then operate through violence to guarantee peoples assets to falsely make the currency look more secure than it is, by threatening you if you don't pay the taxes to recoup the losses of risk in storing your money with someone else. Is it an arms throw from the worst possible system, which would be the absence of any confidence at all, and it is only with systemic manipulation such a system still works at all. That, and the US dollar is the compulsory international currency for oil, which everyone craves like a cocaine addict without a fix.
- omegaham 13y ago
  > The current system is giving a monopoly on printing money without any backing store of value besides the confidence in the printer to a select few easily exploitable and corruptible appointed heads of central banks with no mechanism for the fair distribution of new funds. I think that there's a certain amount of truth to this - countries are able to shape their currency according to their interests. For example, China deliberately keeps the yuan weak in order to stay competitive with exports. This tends to benefit the elite and dick over the poor. However, I think that a cryptocurrency is a bad alternative to this, due to the next point: > These banks then operate through violence to guarantee peoples assets to falsely make the currency look more secure than it is, by threatening you if you don't pay the taxes to recoup the losses of risk in storing your money with someone else. Having a system of enforcing contracts is essential to having a working currency. You are basically saying that banks are being evil when they repossess and foreclose on property, but if they weren't allowed to do so, they wouldn't lend money in the first place. And like it or not, credit is essential to the functioning of a society; it's been around in some shape or form since the ancient Egyptians. We've come a long way from having a private army come to your house to sell your family into slavery, but it's the same thing in principle - we sign contracts and are held to them. These contracts need to be regulated with the force of the government. There's a large web of mutual obligations here - the government forces banks to lend responsibly, and in turn the government guarantees through the courts and the police that it will enforce these contracts. Bitcoin doesn't have any of this. And that's why it's so volatile and why speculation drowns legitimate transactions.
  - pfisch 13y ago
    > Having a system of enforcing contracts is essential to having a working currency. You are basically saying that banks are being evil when they repossess and foreclose on property, but if they weren't allowed to do so, they wouldn't lend money in the first place. And like it or not, credit is essential to the functioning of a society; it's been around in some shape or form since the ancient Egyptians. We've come a long way from having a private army come to your house to sell your family into slavery, but it's the same thing in principle - we sign contracts and are held to them. These contracts need to be regulated with the force of the government. There's a large web of mutual obligations here - the government forces banks to lend responsibly, and in turn the government guarantees through the courts and the police that it will enforce these contracts. >Bitcoin doesn't have any of this. And that's why it's so volatile and why speculation drowns legitimate transactions. I don't understand. Bitcoins are just an asset so they have all of this under the law. You can't steal people's bitcoins legally anymore than you can steal someone's tv or gold or whatever.
wyager 13y ago
>This concept seems somewhat familiar, you might even consider it a crypto currency's Central Bank. Not necessary. There simply need to be enough people supporting the currency at launch.
- andrewflnr 13y ago
  GP was specifically responding to rsync's proposal of a sponsoring organization.
pkulak 13y ago
I'm no fan of Bitcoin, in principal. I agree with you; it's flawed as hell long term, for multiple reasons I won't go into here. But boy, is it ever nice to work with. Several of the companies I have business with now support BTC payments, and all I do is click on the link, which opens up my Coinbase account with all the fields pre-filled, hit one more button and it's done. Not easier than, say, Amazon, where I buy something every week at least, have my card information saved and make sure I keep it updated when it expires, etc. But, if it's a new place, where I just have to make a one-time payment, I'll choose BTC every time if it's offered.
- wcummings 13y ago
  >I'm no fan of Bitcoin >I'll choose BTC every time if it's offered I hate to break this to you, but you might be a fan of Bitcoin
  - pkulak 13y ago
    Lot's of things are bad for the world, but personally convenient for me, so I use them. I'm not saying it's one of my better qualities. :D
- mbreese 13y ago
  Are these vendors pricing their product/service in BTC or USD/local equivalent? How much extra are you paying over the traditional costs for the ease of a bitcoin payment? At some point the volatility and cost of obtaining bitcoin will outweigh the ease of use. I'm curious to know where that might be.
  - pkulak 13y ago
    Everything is USD equivalent, and you have like 5 minutes to make the payment so that the price can't fall too far before they cash out on the other end. haha But it works fine. I have like $40 in my Coinbase account. It bounces around, and I don't really keep track of it. It's not like I'm holding my savings in there. Just enough so I can make small payments when I want to.
stefan_kendall3 13y ago
A consortium of businesses could maintain control, with no one entity owning the blockchain. As much fun as it is to think about Joe Farmer with an ASIC or GPU, when there's a $7B+ market cap to tap, real interests will get involved.
olalonde 13y ago
> My prediction is that at the end there will be an epiphany that our real world currency system is constructed the way it is for a reason. This line of reasoning is sketchy at best given that a "decentralized ledger" could not have possibly been considered as an option when the current system was built (it was not known such a system could even exist). If you had said the same thing about email in the early days ("my prediction is that our real world mail system is constructed the way it is for a reason") you would have been dead wrong. > So, you're saying that there should be some kind of powerful institution that is capable of defending the currency against manipulation attempts if necessary and thus ensures a reasonable level of stability in said currency? There is a distinction to be made between a central bank that is controlled by an individual country (which may or may not be accountable to its population) and a decentralized institution that is ruled by mathematic, totally transparent and spans multiple countries. There are also ways around the potential 51% attack threat for smaller crypto-currencies which include piggy backing off Bitcoin's network hashing power (http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/273/how-does-merged-mining-work http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/273/how-does-merg...) or using Proof of Stake instead of Proof of Work.

zanny 13y ago

I've been in BTC trading for two years. Never has anything been wrong with btc proper, it is always with centralized businesses around it, with the exception of the double spend fork of the blockchain during that one version upgrade early on, which was a valuable lesson for future upgrades like the recent 0.9 transition, which went smoothly. And no, central banks are awful. That is one of the myriad reasons distributed compute power is what makes bitcoin strong. And ironically, central banks are autocratic and blockchains are democratic, while the systems that consistently produce the former are purported republics, and blockchains just come from no ideology or power structure, I guess anarchy. > My prediction is that at the end there will be an epiphany that our real world currency system is constructed the way it is for a reason. It may not be perfect, it certainly has some major flaws but at the end of the day it's still better than the alternatives. The current system is giving a monopoly on printing money without any backing store of value besides the confidence in the printer to a select few easily exploitable and corruptible appointed heads of central banks with no mechanism for the fair distribution of new funds. These banks then operate through violence to guarantee peoples assets to falsely make the currency look more secure than it is, by threatening you if you don't pay the taxes to recoup the losses of risk in storing your money with someone else. Is it an arms throw from the worst possible system, which would be the absence of any confidence at all, and it is only with systemic manipulation such a system still works at all. That, and the US dollar is the compulsory international currency for oil, which everyone craves like a cocaine addict without a fix.

omegaham 13y ago
> The current system is giving a monopoly on printing money without any backing store of value besides the confidence in the printer to a select few easily exploitable and corruptible appointed heads of central banks with no mechanism for the fair distribution of new funds. I think that there's a certain amount of truth to this - countries are able to shape their currency according to their interests. For example, China deliberately keeps the yuan weak in order to stay competitive with exports. This tends to benefit the elite and dick over the poor. However, I think that a cryptocurrency is a bad alternative to this, due to the next point: > These banks then operate through violence to guarantee peoples assets to falsely make the currency look more secure than it is, by threatening you if you don't pay the taxes to recoup the losses of risk in storing your money with someone else. Having a system of enforcing contracts is essential to having a working currency. You are basically saying that banks are being evil when they repossess and foreclose on property, but if they weren't allowed to do so, they wouldn't lend money in the first place. And like it or not, credit is essential to the functioning of a society; it's been around in some shape or form since the ancient Egyptians. We've come a long way from having a private army come to your house to sell your family into slavery, but it's the same thing in principle - we sign contracts and are held to them. These contracts need to be regulated with the force of the government. There's a large web of mutual obligations here - the government forces banks to lend responsibly, and in turn the government guarantees through the courts and the police that it will enforce these contracts. Bitcoin doesn't have any of this. And that's why it's so volatile and why speculation drowns legitimate transactions.
- pfisch 13y ago
  > Having a system of enforcing contracts is essential to having a working currency. You are basically saying that banks are being evil when they repossess and foreclose on property, but if they weren't allowed to do so, they wouldn't lend money in the first place. And like it or not, credit is essential to the functioning of a society; it's been around in some shape or form since the ancient Egyptians. We've come a long way from having a private army come to your house to sell your family into slavery, but it's the same thing in principle - we sign contracts and are held to them. These contracts need to be regulated with the force of the government. There's a large web of mutual obligations here - the government forces banks to lend responsibly, and in turn the government guarantees through the courts and the police that it will enforce these contracts. >Bitcoin doesn't have any of this. And that's why it's so volatile and why speculation drowns legitimate transactions. I don't understand. Bitcoins are just an asset so they have all of this under the law. You can't steal people's bitcoins legally anymore than you can steal someone's tv or gold or whatever.

wyager 13y ago

>This concept seems somewhat familiar, you might even consider it a crypto currency's Central Bank. Not necessary. There simply need to be enough people supporting the currency at launch.

andrewflnr 13y ago
GP was specifically responding to rsync's proposal of a sponsoring organization.

pkulak 13y ago

I'm no fan of Bitcoin, in principal. I agree with you; it's flawed as hell long term, for multiple reasons I won't go into here. But boy, is it ever nice to work with. Several of the companies I have business with now support BTC payments, and all I do is click on the link, which opens up my Coinbase account with all the fields pre-filled, hit one more button and it's done. Not easier than, say, Amazon, where I buy something every week at least, have my card information saved and make sure I keep it updated when it expires, etc. But, if it's a new place, where I just have to make a one-time payment, I'll choose BTC every time if it's offered.

wcummings 13y ago
>I'm no fan of Bitcoin >I'll choose BTC every time if it's offered I hate to break this to you, but you might be a fan of Bitcoin
- pkulak 13y ago
  Lot's of things are bad for the world, but personally convenient for me, so I use them. I'm not saying it's one of my better qualities. :D
mbreese 13y ago
Are these vendors pricing their product/service in BTC or USD/local equivalent? How much extra are you paying over the traditional costs for the ease of a bitcoin payment? At some point the volatility and cost of obtaining bitcoin will outweigh the ease of use. I'm curious to know where that might be.
- pkulak 13y ago
  Everything is USD equivalent, and you have like 5 minutes to make the payment so that the price can't fall too far before they cash out on the other end. haha But it works fine. I have like $40 in my Coinbase account. It bounces around, and I don't really keep track of it. It's not like I'm holding my savings in there. Just enough so I can make small payments when I want to.

stefan_kendall3 13y ago

A consortium of businesses could maintain control, with no one entity owning the blockchain. As much fun as it is to think about Joe Farmer with an ASIC or GPU, when there's a $7B+ market cap to tap, real interests will get involved.

olalonde 13y ago

> My prediction is that at the end there will be an epiphany that our real world currency system is constructed the way it is for a reason. This line of reasoning is sketchy at best given that a "decentralized ledger" could not have possibly been considered as an option when the current system was built (it was not known such a system could even exist). If you had said the same thing about email in the early days ("my prediction is that our real world mail system is constructed the way it is for a reason") you would have been dead wrong. > So, you're saying that there should be some kind of powerful institution that is capable of defending the currency against manipulation attempts if necessary and thus ensures a reasonable level of stability in said currency? There is a distinction to be made between a central bank that is controlled by an individual country (which may or may not be accountable to its population) and a decentralized institution that is ruled by mathematic, totally transparent and spans multiple countries. There are also ways around the potential 51% attack threat for smaller crypto-currencies which include piggy backing off Bitcoin's network hashing power (http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/273/how-does-merged-mining-work http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/273/how-does-merg...) or using Proof of Stake instead of Proof of Work.