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I am not saying this is the drivers fault as, based on how the facts are presented here, is clearly GMs. But- Are the deaths due to the drivers not adapting qu

I am not saying this is the drivers fault as, based on how the facts are presented here, is clearly GMs. But- Are the deaths due to the drivers not adapting quickly enough to the loss of power steering? After all breaks and steer are still working? I have driven a vehicle without power steering and it wasn't that bad, and the vehicles in question (Cobalts) are rather light.

msandford 13y ago
A power steering rack & pinion is rather different than a manual rack & pinion. In my experience when a car loses power steering it's a real pain. Especially if you're used to power steering. Having it drop out could feel like the steering wheel has locked up.
albeec13 13y ago
I was wondering the same thing. As a teen I drove a small car, and at least once or twice while playing around with shifting gears (mind you, this was an automatic) I accidentally shifted into reverse while in motion, causing everything in the car, including the engine and power steering to shut down. All I did was quickly turn the ignition key to restart the engine and all was well. Yes power steering loss makes the car very sluggish, but really you're just coasting at that point and turning the ignition switch quickly is second nature. I'm sure it could be a little more frantic at highway speeds. I wonder if this is something that should be taught in driver's ed? (Regardless of my above comments, I do agree GM is responsible for sweeping this under the rug)
klinquist 13y ago
Steering as long as you are moving isn't too bad. With brakes, you've generally got one solid push of the pedal (vacuum reserve in the booster) before you have to stomp VERY hard to get a vehicle to stop.
logicallee 13y ago
"Due" and "because of" are very difficult questions. Someone whose family member died but who has a bigger beef might well conclude, "because he didn't get the bonus that [some company] owed him, he ended up having to settle for a Chevy Cobalt - a car that likely ended up killing him." Is this use of "because" correct? Sure, why not. He wouldn't have died if his bonus had been paid? Might well be true. I would personally not be interested in "due to" and "because of". To answer your question, you could have asked instead, "I wonder if experienced drivers who were used to driving without power steering would have not been adversely affected." Note: my example is a case where blaming a lack of bonus on the death is clearly wrong - but isn't attributing causative power to someone not being used to a car suddenly changing into a totally different input paradigm equally wrong? Better to stick to the factual question for starters.
mindslight 13y ago
Power brakes will disappear when the built up vacuum runs out, and one could easily exhaust it when panicking. Driving without power steering on my 2000lb Civic is actually quite fun (except in parking spots), and at highway speeds lack of it isn't really even noticeable. On the other hand rolling my car down a driveway, starting to stop, and then having the power brakes suddenly run out always startles me, even at that low speed. I think a lot of these accidents are indeed caused by drivers panicking from being completely out of touch with what the car is doing, but that does not mean there is a straightforward solution. Knowing what a failure of power steering/brakes feels like, I'd just coast over to the breakdown lane and stop with the hand brake/engine. On the other hand, I once had a passenger (in my old automatic transmission car) accidentally bump it into neutral when I was on the highway and it took me ten seconds to figure out what was going on.
jevinskie 13y ago
The article stated that you also lose airbags when the ignition is not in the run position. That seems pretty significant!
- smileysteve 13y ago
  I think that this is the key argument fir the deaths caused. But, I was under the impression that the effectiveness of air bags compared to their hazards was coming into question in testing anyway. a seat belt saves many more lives than an airbag?
  - josephlord 13y ago
    The combination is the best (apart from not crashing at all). I had heard that US airbags were bigger than European ones as they were designed to attempt to compensate for the lack of seat belt use (which was apparently common in the 90's).
h_r 13y ago
I had this happen to me years ago while driving on an isolated stretch of highway with no streetlights or other ambient light. Suddenly the engine cut off and it was completely dark while rolling down the highway. Needless to say, it scared the hell out of me. Fortunately the road was straight and after about 3 second it came back on as I was trying to see where the edge of the road was, and no other cars were around (although that would probably have helped me see or regain perspective). It's easy to imagine how I could have rolled off into a ravine regardless if I could forcibly steer the car.
alistairSH 13y ago
Directly cause deaths? Maybe, maybe not, I guess it depends how far into a root cause analysis you go. Regardless, while driving without power steering and brakes is possible when you're expecting it, it's quite a shock when you aren't. Especially if you've never done it before, which I suspect is true for many of today's drivers. I can easily envision circumstances where loss of power could cause an accident. Fast road, sharp corner, surrounded by woods, etc.
- dippyskoodlez 13y ago
  I concur, as a driver you're probably more likely to bump your key when turning which could be especially bad in some areas/speeds/locations.
JangoSteve 13y ago
Keep in mind, it's not just that the power is getting cut, it's getting cut because the key is getting bumped or otherwise turned to the off position. Of course, there are generally 2 different off positions, and in one of them (the really off position), the steering wheel also locks. So yeah, losing power steering, power brakes, the ability to accelerate, and possibly even having the steering wheel locked up, all while the car is in gear, can make it impossible to avoid collisions. Combine that with the fact that it is a completely sudden surprise to both the driver and anyone else around the car, and to top it off, the airbags are disabled. It's generally an extremely dangerous situation.

msandford 13y ago

A power steering rack & pinion is rather different than a manual rack & pinion. In my experience when a car loses power steering it's a real pain. Especially if you're used to power steering. Having it drop out could feel like the steering wheel has locked up.

albeec13 13y ago

I was wondering the same thing. As a teen I drove a small car, and at least once or twice while playing around with shifting gears (mind you, this was an automatic) I accidentally shifted into reverse while in motion, causing everything in the car, including the engine and power steering to shut down. All I did was quickly turn the ignition key to restart the engine and all was well. Yes power steering loss makes the car very sluggish, but really you're just coasting at that point and turning the ignition switch quickly is second nature. I'm sure it could be a little more frantic at highway speeds. I wonder if this is something that should be taught in driver's ed? (Regardless of my above comments, I do agree GM is responsible for sweeping this under the rug)

klinquist 13y ago

Steering as long as you are moving isn't too bad. With brakes, you've generally got one solid push of the pedal (vacuum reserve in the booster) before you have to stomp VERY hard to get a vehicle to stop.

logicallee 13y ago

"Due" and "because of" are very difficult questions. Someone whose family member died but who has a bigger beef might well conclude, "because he didn't get the bonus that [some company] owed him, he ended up having to settle for a Chevy Cobalt - a car that likely ended up killing him." Is this use of "because" correct? Sure, why not. He wouldn't have died if his bonus had been paid? Might well be true. I would personally not be interested in "due to" and "because of". To answer your question, you could have asked instead, "I wonder if experienced drivers who were used to driving without power steering would have not been adversely affected." Note: my example is a case where blaming a lack of bonus on the death is clearly wrong - but isn't attributing causative power to someone not being used to a car suddenly changing into a totally different input paradigm equally wrong? Better to stick to the factual question for starters.

mindslight 13y ago

Power brakes will disappear when the built up vacuum runs out, and one could easily exhaust it when panicking. Driving without power steering on my 2000lb Civic is actually quite fun (except in parking spots), and at highway speeds lack of it isn't really even noticeable. On the other hand rolling my car down a driveway, starting to stop, and then having the power brakes suddenly run out always startles me, even at that low speed. I think a lot of these accidents are indeed caused by drivers panicking from being completely out of touch with what the car is doing, but that does not mean there is a straightforward solution. Knowing what a failure of power steering/brakes feels like, I'd just coast over to the breakdown lane and stop with the hand brake/engine. On the other hand, I once had a passenger (in my old automatic transmission car) accidentally bump it into neutral when I was on the highway and it took me ten seconds to figure out what was going on.

jevinskie 13y ago

The article stated that you also lose airbags when the ignition is not in the run position. That seems pretty significant!

smileysteve 13y ago
I think that this is the key argument fir the deaths caused. But, I was under the impression that the effectiveness of air bags compared to their hazards was coming into question in testing anyway. a seat belt saves many more lives than an airbag?
- josephlord 13y ago
  The combination is the best (apart from not crashing at all). I had heard that US airbags were bigger than European ones as they were designed to attempt to compensate for the lack of seat belt use (which was apparently common in the 90's).

h_r 13y ago

I had this happen to me years ago while driving on an isolated stretch of highway with no streetlights or other ambient light. Suddenly the engine cut off and it was completely dark while rolling down the highway. Needless to say, it scared the hell out of me. Fortunately the road was straight and after about 3 second it came back on as I was trying to see where the edge of the road was, and no other cars were around (although that would probably have helped me see or regain perspective). It's easy to imagine how I could have rolled off into a ravine regardless if I could forcibly steer the car.

alistairSH 13y ago

Directly cause deaths? Maybe, maybe not, I guess it depends how far into a root cause analysis you go. Regardless, while driving without power steering and brakes is possible when you're expecting it, it's quite a shock when you aren't. Especially if you've never done it before, which I suspect is true for many of today's drivers. I can easily envision circumstances where loss of power could cause an accident. Fast road, sharp corner, surrounded by woods, etc.

dippyskoodlez 13y ago
I concur, as a driver you're probably more likely to bump your key when turning which could be especially bad in some areas/speeds/locations.

JangoSteve 13y ago

Keep in mind, it's not just that the power is getting cut, it's getting cut because the key is getting bumped or otherwise turned to the off position. Of course, there are generally 2 different off positions, and in one of them (the really off position), the steering wheel also locks. So yeah, losing power steering, power brakes, the ability to accelerate, and possibly even having the steering wheel locked up, all while the car is in gear, can make it impossible to avoid collisions. Combine that with the fact that it is a completely sudden surprise to both the driver and anyone else around the car, and to top it off, the airbags are disabled. It's generally an extremely dangerous situation.