5 ms·

Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products

13 points by jknupp 13y ago

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
babyturtle 13y ago
I just found out one of the developers doesnt like meth.. hmmmphhh ... Im soooooo offended!!111!! Im boycotting too!
phpnode 13y ago
I notice that your site uses JavaScript. Did you know that Brendan Eich invented JavaScript? For consistency, you should not only remove JS from your site but also boycott every other site that uses it, including this one.
- jknupp 13y ago
  I agree. I'm not being consistent in my views. I'm going to continue to use JavaScript, but I don't the Eich should be running Mozilla. Humans are complicated.
  - phpnode 13y ago
    Regardless of the merits of taking a public stand against this kind of thing, you, and the other people speaking out against Eich are making a Fundamental Attribution Error [0]. The fact that Eich donated in support of prop 8 does not necessarily make him a homophobe. The only thing we see is the donation and none of the context around what made him decide to do it. He has denied being a homophobe and there have been no reports of any homophobic behaviour. The only thing we actually know is that he made a donation to a political cause that the majority of the voting public also agreed with. Is it fair to say that every single one of the 52%[1] of voters in support of prop 8 are homophobes? Plainly the answer is no. [0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)#Results http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)...
    - jknupp 13y ago
      I never accused him of being a homophobe, I simply stated all that I can glean from the facts: he doesn't believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry.
      - coldtea 13y ago
        So what? I know several homosexuals who don't believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry -- people who actually believe this is a regression to BS bourgeois values from gay people losing all perspective of 70's struggles (regarding liberation from antiquated values and institutions). In general, taking a single issue and making it something people can lose their job over it, just because you have the power to push for it in the media, is very wrong. At worse, what Brendan voted for would merely not let some gay people perform the same BS marital custom that straight people do. Doesn't compare at all to death penalty in my book --which costs hundrends of lives -- including of kids in places like Texas. So, Should people who are in favor of the death penatly lose their job and have their CEO positions boycotted? Take you for example. What do you think about animal rights? Or the death penatly? Or gun control? Or drugs?
      - phpnode 13y ago
        > he doesn't believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry. No, we cannot even infer this much, all we know is that he donated to a political cause. We know nothing else, can we stop the bullying now please?
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >Humans are complicated Except Eich, who is some kind of one-dimensional figure, and should lose his CEO position because people don't agree with his personal opinions.
purringmeow 13y ago
Has B.Eich done anything do expose his views in the workplace? I don't think so. It's unfair to push your political/societal ideas on others in the company and demand they conform to them. I am saying that as a note to some employees demanding B.Eich to resign, because of the donation he made. It's getting a bit ridiculous how some people are getting publicly bashed, because of their views. There is clear separation between the person with his views and the company with its vision.
- natch 13y ago
  My personal views outside of work have little bearing on my ability to do my job. But then, I'm not a CEO. CEOs have to be leaders, and their personal views, separate or not, are very relevant to their ability to lead.
  - purringmeow 13y ago
    What does his stance on gay marriage tell you about his ability to lead? It tells me exactly nothing. Has he harrased or fired an employee for being gay? I really doubt that.
    - natch 13y ago
      Life isn't fair, but a sense of fairness is a good starting point for a leader. Not to mention empathy, compassion, and respect for equal treatment of people.
  - booop 13y ago
    > CEOs have to be leaders, and their personal views, separate or not, are very relevant to their ability to lead. Utter nonsense. CEOs can have personal and professional lives, just like anyone else. Eich may have opposed gay marriage but this doesn't seem to have affected any policy at Mozilla. Those going crazy over this are only insecure.
- dalke 13y ago
  When is it fair "to push your political/societal ideas on others in the company and demand they conform to them"? When is it okay to publicly bash people because of their public actions? (Note that I changed "views" to "public actions", since as I understand it the main objection is to a specific public action; donating money to a political cause.) The answer certainly isn't "never". I can think of no clear boundary for when it is/isn't fair or okay. At the very least, I don't think there's always a clear separation between a person and a company's vision. One need only consider the professed vision of "Susan G. Komen for the Cure" vs. the public reactions to the specific views and actions of some of its board. Or going back a few years, consider the 2004 attempted "takeover" of the Sierra Club board by those with a stronger immigration-reduction viewpoint. Personally, I think it's completely fair to demand that others conform with your political/societal ideas. Do you think Stallman would have gotten anywhere with free software if he followed your recommendation? OTOH, I think that it's completely unrealistic to believe that others will always conform with your ideas.
Pacabel 13y ago
One thing I've noticed a lot of with many of the arguments regarding this particular incident is blatant contradiction and hypocrisy. While these aren't unusual, they're particularly bad in this case. This article, for instance, states the following: "Indeed, any right withheld from any group of people must be rallied against." Yet the author makes that very claim in an article that basically suggests that people should not have the right to oppose homosexuality or gay marriage, and should not have the right merely to express such beliefs. He should be rallying against his own article and his own stance, in fact. I'm not suggesting that he or anyone else should be denied the right to hold or to express contradictory or hypocritical viewpoints, of course. But the use of such arguments does make it hard to take one seriously, regardless of what the issue at hand is, and regardless of the position being expressed.
- natch 13y ago
  People are entitled to their views. But some views are not conducive to good leadership.
  - dalke 13y ago
    And expressing views may have social consequences. There is no general right which requires others to ignore or disregard speech they don't like. (There are limited rights, like workplace laws protecting people who express views about unsafe working conditions or racial discrimination in the workplace from retaliatory action by their employers. This should not be confused with a general right that applies to everyone and all speech.)
- jknupp 13y ago
  Notice I never said "He should never be allowed to state his opinion." He's free to do so, and did. And in doing so made a public statement about his views. If you believe basic human rights should be denied to a group of individuals, I have an issue with that.
burntroots 13y ago
So what's happening here is a man is fighting intolerance with more intolerance. That seems productive.
- burntroots 13y ago
  To the person who downvoted me, how am I wrong?
  - dkuntz2 13y ago
    Would you argue that the Montgomery Bus Boycott was just fighting intolerance with intolerance? Is Richard Stallman intolerant because he boycotts the Coca-Cola company? Boycotting isn't fighting intolerance with intolerance, it's just an instance of someone abstaining from something.
coldtea 13y ago
"Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products" Because you need to invent BS crusades and then inform anyone about them in order to get attention? Just a guess, it could just be because you cannot toleate someone holding an opinion counter to yours in an issue, and have to retaliate on him not by democratic procedures or exchange of ideas, but by causing him to lose his job.
voidr 13y ago
Just because someone wants the word marriage to mean `union between biological man and biological woman` does not mean that that person is homophobic, this is a a display of ignorance coming from people asking for tolerance. So far it has been not proven that Brendan Eich is homophobic, the only thing we know is that he wouldn't prefer to call same sex unions marriages.

13 points by jknupp 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

babyturtle 13y ago

I just found out one of the developers doesnt like meth.. hmmmphhh ... Im soooooo offended!!111!! Im boycotting too!

phpnode 13y ago

I notice that your site uses JavaScript. Did you know that Brendan Eich invented JavaScript? For consistency, you should not only remove JS from your site but also boycott every other site that uses it, including this one.

jknupp 13y ago
I agree. I'm not being consistent in my views. I'm going to continue to use JavaScript, but I don't the Eich should be running Mozilla. Humans are complicated.
- phpnode 13y ago
  Regardless of the merits of taking a public stand against this kind of thing, you, and the other people speaking out against Eich are making a Fundamental Attribution Error [0]. The fact that Eich donated in support of prop 8 does not necessarily make him a homophobe. The only thing we see is the donation and none of the context around what made him decide to do it. He has denied being a homophobe and there have been no reports of any homophobic behaviour. The only thing we actually know is that he made a donation to a political cause that the majority of the voting public also agreed with. Is it fair to say that every single one of the 52%[1] of voters in support of prop 8 are homophobes? Plainly the answer is no. [0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)#Results http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_8_(2008)...
  - jknupp 13y ago
    I never accused him of being a homophobe, I simply stated all that I can glean from the facts: he doesn't believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      So what? I know several homosexuals who don't believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry -- people who actually believe this is a regression to BS bourgeois values from gay people losing all perspective of 70's struggles (regarding liberation from antiquated values and institutions). In general, taking a single issue and making it something people can lose their job over it, just because you have the power to push for it in the media, is very wrong. At worse, what Brendan voted for would merely not let some gay people perform the same BS marital custom that straight people do. Doesn't compare at all to death penalty in my book --which costs hundrends of lives -- including of kids in places like Texas. So, Should people who are in favor of the death penatly lose their job and have their CEO positions boycotted? Take you for example. What do you think about animal rights? Or the death penatly? Or gun control? Or drugs?
    - phpnode 13y ago
      > he doesn't believe homosexuals should be allowed to marry. No, we cannot even infer this much, all we know is that he donated to a political cause. We know nothing else, can we stop the bullying now please?
- coldtea 13y ago
  >Humans are complicated Except Eich, who is some kind of one-dimensional figure, and should lose his CEO position because people don't agree with his personal opinions.

purringmeow 13y ago

Has B.Eich done anything do expose his views in the workplace? I don't think so. It's unfair to push your political/societal ideas on others in the company and demand they conform to them. I am saying that as a note to some employees demanding B.Eich to resign, because of the donation he made. It's getting a bit ridiculous how some people are getting publicly bashed, because of their views. There is clear separation between the person with his views and the company with its vision.

natch 13y ago
My personal views outside of work have little bearing on my ability to do my job. But then, I'm not a CEO. CEOs have to be leaders, and their personal views, separate or not, are very relevant to their ability to lead.
- purringmeow 13y ago
  What does his stance on gay marriage tell you about his ability to lead? It tells me exactly nothing. Has he harrased or fired an employee for being gay? I really doubt that.
  - natch 13y ago
    Life isn't fair, but a sense of fairness is a good starting point for a leader. Not to mention empathy, compassion, and respect for equal treatment of people.
- booop 13y ago
  > CEOs have to be leaders, and their personal views, separate or not, are very relevant to their ability to lead. Utter nonsense. CEOs can have personal and professional lives, just like anyone else. Eich may have opposed gay marriage but this doesn't seem to have affected any policy at Mozilla. Those going crazy over this are only insecure.
dalke 13y ago
When is it fair "to push your political/societal ideas on others in the company and demand they conform to them"? When is it okay to publicly bash people because of their public actions? (Note that I changed "views" to "public actions", since as I understand it the main objection is to a specific public action; donating money to a political cause.) The answer certainly isn't "never". I can think of no clear boundary for when it is/isn't fair or okay. At the very least, I don't think there's always a clear separation between a person and a company's vision. One need only consider the professed vision of "Susan G. Komen for the Cure" vs. the public reactions to the specific views and actions of some of its board. Or going back a few years, consider the 2004 attempted "takeover" of the Sierra Club board by those with a stronger immigration-reduction viewpoint. Personally, I think it's completely fair to demand that others conform with your political/societal ideas. Do you think Stallman would have gotten anywhere with free software if he followed your recommendation? OTOH, I think that it's completely unrealistic to believe that others will always conform with your ideas.

Pacabel 13y ago

One thing I've noticed a lot of with many of the arguments regarding this particular incident is blatant contradiction and hypocrisy. While these aren't unusual, they're particularly bad in this case. This article, for instance, states the following: "Indeed, any right withheld from any group of people must be rallied against." Yet the author makes that very claim in an article that basically suggests that people should not have the right to oppose homosexuality or gay marriage, and should not have the right merely to express such beliefs. He should be rallying against his own article and his own stance, in fact. I'm not suggesting that he or anyone else should be denied the right to hold or to express contradictory or hypocritical viewpoints, of course. But the use of such arguments does make it hard to take one seriously, regardless of what the issue at hand is, and regardless of the position being expressed.

natch 13y ago
People are entitled to their views. But some views are not conducive to good leadership.
- dalke 13y ago
  And expressing views may have social consequences. There is no general right which requires others to ignore or disregard speech they don't like. (There are limited rights, like workplace laws protecting people who express views about unsafe working conditions or racial discrimination in the workplace from retaliatory action by their employers. This should not be confused with a general right that applies to everyone and all speech.)
jknupp 13y ago
Notice I never said "He should never be allowed to state his opinion." He's free to do so, and did. And in doing so made a public statement about his views. If you believe basic human rights should be denied to a group of individuals, I have an issue with that.

burntroots 13y ago

So what's happening here is a man is fighting intolerance with more intolerance. That seems productive.

burntroots 13y ago
To the person who downvoted me, how am I wrong?
- dkuntz2 13y ago
  Would you argue that the Montgomery Bus Boycott was just fighting intolerance with intolerance? Is Richard Stallman intolerant because he boycotts the Coca-Cola company? Boycotting isn't fighting intolerance with intolerance, it's just an instance of someone abstaining from something.

coldtea 13y ago

"Why I'm Boycotting Mozilla Products" Because you need to invent BS crusades and then inform anyone about them in order to get attention? Just a guess, it could just be because you cannot toleate someone holding an opinion counter to yours in an issue, and have to retaliate on him not by democratic procedures or exchange of ideas, but by causing him to lose his job.

voidr 13y ago

Just because someone wants the word marriage to mean `union between biological man and biological woman` does not mean that that person is homophobic, this is a a display of ignorance coming from people asking for tolerance. So far it has been not proven that Brendan Eich is homophobic, the only thing we know is that he wouldn't prefer to call same sex unions marriages.