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True, but my point is that the people who have actually been working for him for many years now have no negative experiences along these lines to report that I'

True, but my point is that the people who have actually been working for him for many years now have no negative experiences along these lines to report that I've seen. And that if you're worried about how he'll treat people working for him, the best thing to do is to ask the people who have been working for him. It's not like he's a new hire into the organization or something; there are lots of people around who have been interacting with him for a long time. I agree that if you had no other source of information than the existence of the donation, that would certainly raise the chances of there being problems in other aspects of interacting with the man, of course. That's obvious. I'm just saying that if there are non-proxy sources of information available, it's better to use those than to use proxy sources that rely on good but imperfect correlations. (The correlation in this case being "someone who strongly supported Proposition 8 is also a problem to work with if you're gay". Reasonably good correlation, I expect, but not perfect.)

wpietri 13y ago
I agree that we've so far had no negative reports. But a) there's a strong disincentive to report, b) subtle discrimination is hard to pin down, and c) that he has helped to strip gay people of their civil rights is enough to cause fear, and fear is all it takes to create problematic working conditions.
- bzbarsky 13y ago
  There's a difference between "no negative reports" and "people actively reporting positive experiences".
- vacri 13y ago
  It seems to me that you're doing everything in your power to hang supreme importance on the six-year-old donation, dismissing people's positive reports and creating a fantasty situation that is pretty much wholly invented from 'what if'. In the intervening six years, there's been plenty of opportunity for people who once worked with him to voice their experiences. It seems to me that you didn't fully read the second link that bzbarsky provided, in which the author says that while she's not happy with the past donation, she doesn't see that it has changed how Mozilla treats its staff, and that in past years it has been improving (years in which Eich was a CxO, if not CEO): To be clear, I’m personally disappointed about Brendan’s donation. However, aside from how it affected me emotionally, I have nothing to indicate that it’s materially hurt my work within the Mozilla community or as a Mozilla employee. Mozilla offers the best benefits I have ever had and goes out of its way to offer benefits to its employees in same-sex marriages or domestic partnerships on par with those in heterosexual marriages. Last year we finally got trans-inclusive healthcare. We didn’t have an explicit code of conduct when I started, but adopted the guidelines for participation within my first year. Progress might be slow, but it’s being made. And I don’t see Brendan standing in the way of that. To throw away commentary like that with a handwave saying "well, any dissenting employees would be silenced by fear" does not do Eich justice, and it also does not do that author justice, because you're effectively saying she doesn't count because she's not in fear. A well-written, considered article, one that is neither gushing nor abusive, presenting a complex, nuanced picture... and it's worthless because 'someone might be too scared to speak up'. It's apparent that you won't be happy unless there's a vocal dissentor to support your point of view. You've essentially pre-convicted the guy against evidence provided by people that currently work with him, and are groping around for ammunition.
  - wpietri 13y ago
    I'm not saying it's worth nothing. I'm saying it's not proof that there never will be any problems. I'm saying that gay employees, partners, and donors can have reasonable concerns about Eich. Personally, I'd be happy if Eich said, "Boy, I was a jerk to support Prop 8. I've always believed in equality, but I supported Prop 8 for [mistaken reasons]. I now understand that helping to strip some of my employees of their civil rights was harmful action, and apologize unreservedly." But instead, he's dodged the question with some vigor. Which makes it reasonable to think he still thinks some of his employees don't deserve the same rights as he does. Whether or not that actually leads to bigoted actions within Mozilla as it has outside of it, reasonable people could fear that it would.

wpietri 13y ago

I agree that we've so far had no negative reports. But a) there's a strong disincentive to report, b) subtle discrimination is hard to pin down, and c) that he has helped to strip gay people of their civil rights is enough to cause fear, and fear is all it takes to create problematic working conditions.

bzbarsky 13y ago
There's a difference between "no negative reports" and "people actively reporting positive experiences".
vacri 13y ago
It seems to me that you're doing everything in your power to hang supreme importance on the six-year-old donation, dismissing people's positive reports and creating a fantasty situation that is pretty much wholly invented from 'what if'. In the intervening six years, there's been plenty of opportunity for people who once worked with him to voice their experiences. It seems to me that you didn't fully read the second link that bzbarsky provided, in which the author says that while she's not happy with the past donation, she doesn't see that it has changed how Mozilla treats its staff, and that in past years it has been improving (years in which Eich was a CxO, if not CEO): To be clear, I’m personally disappointed about Brendan’s donation. However, aside from how it affected me emotionally, I have nothing to indicate that it’s materially hurt my work within the Mozilla community or as a Mozilla employee. Mozilla offers the best benefits I have ever had and goes out of its way to offer benefits to its employees in same-sex marriages or domestic partnerships on par with those in heterosexual marriages. Last year we finally got trans-inclusive healthcare. We didn’t have an explicit code of conduct when I started, but adopted the guidelines for participation within my first year. Progress might be slow, but it’s being made. And I don’t see Brendan standing in the way of that. To throw away commentary like that with a handwave saying "well, any dissenting employees would be silenced by fear" does not do Eich justice, and it also does not do that author justice, because you're effectively saying she doesn't count because she's not in fear. A well-written, considered article, one that is neither gushing nor abusive, presenting a complex, nuanced picture... and it's worthless because 'someone might be too scared to speak up'. It's apparent that you won't be happy unless there's a vocal dissentor to support your point of view. You've essentially pre-convicted the guy against evidence provided by people that currently work with him, and are groping around for ammunition.
- wpietri 13y ago
  I'm not saying it's worth nothing. I'm saying it's not proof that there never will be any problems. I'm saying that gay employees, partners, and donors can have reasonable concerns about Eich. Personally, I'd be happy if Eich said, "Boy, I was a jerk to support Prop 8. I've always believed in equality, but I supported Prop 8 for [mistaken reasons]. I now understand that helping to strip some of my employees of their civil rights was harmful action, and apologize unreservedly." But instead, he's dodged the question with some vigor. Which makes it reasonable to think he still thinks some of his employees don't deserve the same rights as he does. Whether or not that actually leads to bigoted actions within Mozilla as it has outside of it, reasonable people could fear that it would.