5 ms·

Coffee Shops Pull the Plug on Laptop Users

25 points by inovica 17y ago

dan_the_welder 17y ago
Hmm. As a coffee shop owner this is interesting. I was thinking more along the lines of getting a megaphone for my baristas so they can loudly shame the deadbeats. Most of my clientèle are students so the internet access is pretty key. I have noticed a few obviously non-student types hanging out looking for jobs online. Which is cool unless they are bringing their own drinks. Which happens.
- yankeeracer73 17y ago
  As a non-student (with a job) that works fairly often at coffee houses, I try to not always buy the cheapest drink, put a little extra money in the tip jar, etc. understanding that sitting there for 4 hours working and spending $3 is not optimal for the health of the business. I'm curious, however if you've ever considered any kind of alternative business models besides just charging for the Internet access or for the electricity? I've thought about what kind of "value added" services I could charge people for realistically if I had my own place and I haven't come up with much. Do your economics really work with a bunch of students coming in and sitting for hours?
  - christonog 17y ago
    One suggestion I think would work is cater to user or student study groups. Maybe offer a discount to the group if enough show. Or possibly reserve seating for a nominal charge, or with a minimum $ purchase. I know it would have been beneficial and a "value add" for me to know that my study group of 8 would have guaranteed seating and beverages.
    - dan_the_welder 17y ago
      Student groups typically in my experience don't have any money. Administering 'reservations' is a PITA and I think you would end up dealing with no-shows and pissing off drop ins and regulars.
  - dan_the_welder 17y ago
    You good customer sir, I salute you!
  - pbhj 17y ago
    "value added" You don't need that just sniff the traffic for credit card and ID information; rewrite packets with affiliate IDs link requests so that your affiliate link is used; grab copies of business docs etc.. Should be enough there to recoup your costs, especially with some blackmail thrown in for good measure. (Yes, I know, HackerNews-ers don't like jokes, yes, it was supposed to be a joke.)
  - dan_the_welder 17y ago
    Yankeeracer, It is my observation after 5 years in the coffee house biz is that it is an inherently low margin situation. You can't charge for wifi since the other guy gives it away free. Alternative business models? I chose to sell more food in addition to just drinks. I tried shows but that just drives out the regular customers. The main thing is just educate the customers so they care about the business and support you willingly. Get a big selection of drinks, bottled etc, so people can get what they like. The money maker is probably booze but I am not going to go there since it would significantly change the atmosphere. It might also cause problems given that we are open 24/7 and the alcohol license people might not like that.
- cubix 17y ago
  I've seen a few places that offer an hour or two of free access with the code printed on the receipt. This always seemed like a reasonable solution to me. What are your thoughts on that option?
  - dan_the_welder 17y ago
    The hardware for that authentication setup is (or was) expensive. I just block a few ports and a few of the download intensive domains.
sid0 17y ago
Oh no, how will I be a rock star writing Rails code in TextMate on my MBP now? :(
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- cesare 17y ago
  I was about to ask the same question.
- lut4rp 17y ago
  Don't be, use Redcar (www.redcareditor.com) on your linux box :-) At least editors across *nix are faaar better than ones on Windows.
- pingswept 17y ago
  I am proud to say it took me a few moments to figure out what MBP stands for.
CalmQuiet 17y ago
What a great business plan: Harrass the jobless who are working on job applications (or maybe a startup?). Think they'll become loyal customers once they're employed? Weird business idea: figure out how to be supportive toward the down-and-(temp.)out techies (and their laptops) so you have a tech-friendly reputation. [ If you don't, some of them will open shops that will compete with yours. ]
- robryan 17y ago
  There is a fine line that has to be drawn though, can't let people not buying anything sit there all day in the hope that in the future they will start buying a decent amount.
  - dan_the_welder 17y ago
    Things are getting tight for people. I imagine some people have gotten rid of their internet at home or used to get it at work. Then the only way to have connectivity is at a hot spot, what else are you going to do?
    - paulbaumgart 17y ago
      Go to the library.
- pbhj 17y ago
  If you let the "waifs and strays" in those same people when they're better off will consider themselves above your establishment and go somewhere more expensive that doesn't let in the riff-raff. IMO.
thras 17y ago
When I read this the other day, I wondered how many laptop abusers there are compared to people who sit with their laptop and continue to buy things. Because this gets rid of both. Maybe the economy has gotten bad enough recently to tip the scale too far.
- olefoo 17y ago
  It may just be New York. I haven't seen any instances of laptop use being discouraged, except for non-customers. And the rule of no outside food and drink makes perfect sense.
indiejade 17y ago
So far, this appears to be largely a New York phenomenon, though San Francisco's Coffee Bar does now put out signs when the shop is crowded asking laptop users to share tables and make space for other customers. Cool; I'm never moving to NY. It's highly unlikely that many SF or SV places could actually "get away" with kicking out their paying customers and maintain any kind of loyal customer base. It's really a symbiotic relationship -- being nice to the laptop wielders makes it much more likely that they'll be nice to your business in online reviews and contexts.
jcw 17y ago
As far as I know, Starbucks locations allow you two hours of wifi access along with a purchase. Seems reasonable to me.
- mhb 17y ago
  Seems at least an hour and a half better than reasonable.
- chaosmachine 17y ago
  This is the only reason they get my business over a closer and much cheaper coffee shop (with no wifi).
DanielStraight 17y ago
I always thought that allowing customers to sit around was the coffee shop business model. It's like Barnes & Noble versus previous bookstores. Barnes & Noble encourages you to sit down and read books you have no intention of buying. They're smart enough to know that if you're in the store for 2 hours at a time on a regular basis, you're going to buy SOMETHING. I buy a lot of stuff at Barnes & Noble even though Amazon is generally cheaper. I go there all the time because it's such a cool place to shop, and I buy stuff because I see it and I'm like, "I WANT!" Anyway, my impression was always that Starbucks and others had the same idea. If you let customers chill for a few hours, they're going to buy stuff. I know I do. If I'm going to sit and read or sit and use a laptop, I'll buy a good drink and some kind of snack. If I want to stay after I finish that, I'll buy something else. I guess the problem is now customers aren't buying stuff, which sadly coffee shops are fighting in less-than-optimal ways. The problem is, I think, that there is no optimal way that coffee shop owners can do anything. Customers need to be reasonable and support the businesses that are giving them such a nice place to hang out and get online.
- huhtenberg 17y ago
  > Barnes & Noble encourages you to sit down and read books Don't know about BN, but I noticed recently that their Canadian version called Chapters now have substantially fewer chairs than they did a year ago. In smaller stores chairs are gone completely. There's also virtually no wall space to lean against, and they generally discourage from sitting on the floor. > If you let customers chill for a few hours, they're going to buy stuff. Let's say you sit for 4 hours and buy two cups of coffee. If the shop is packed, your chair could instead serve 5-6 lunch customers in a matter of just two hours, each spending considerably more than you. On the other hand if the shop is half-empty, it's nice to have people sitting around, because it creates crowd. So if you add 1 and 1, you will arrive at the exact policy described in the article - no idlers during the lunch hours.
  - thingie 17y ago
    I wouldn't like to spend few hours in a packed shop, would you?
  - 17y ago
natch 17y ago
It's odd that some people seem to be assuming everyone is either surfing or job hunting. From having talked to people, I think more often it's people making stuff, being creative, getting stuff done - some amazing projects and products get created in cafes. I love seeing laptops out in coffee shops. When a cafe is welcoming of laptops, I always tip better: paper only.
mcantor 17y ago
I was flabbergasted at the account of people bringing in their own tea bags or home-made sandwiches. Kudos to the coffee shop owners for trying to accommodate them by adding sandwiches to their repertoire, but I'm not surprised that it didn't change much. If someone comes in with a teabag and a PB&J so they can cuddle up in the corner with their laptop all day, I have no compassion; coffee shops need to stay in business, and to stay in business there needs to be place for paying customers to sit. Conversely, kicking someone out when the place is almost empty sounds like just awful PR to me. It's an intuitive distinction: "It's busy, we need space for people to sit," vs. "It's empty, feel free to hang out until it gets busy." What's complicated about that?
- pbhj 17y ago
  Even if they're "cuddle[d] up in the corner" then they're still using electric, still leaving crumbs on the floor, putting dirty feet on furniture, still going to use the washrooms, etc.. They may seem like little things but they're real costs. I think I'd aim for a tech solution of providing a ticket with purchases over X amount (coffee + danish price) with one hours free log-on. You either then pay for additional web or buy more products or leave.
- dan_the_welder 17y ago
  A coffee house is attempting to be an open public space while making money on the drink concession. Some people think it's just fine to take advantage of the public space and not use the concession. Those people are clueless or jerks and fail to understand that the space is only as open as the owner wants it to be. It's a fine line.
inovica 17y ago
Didn't the woman who wrote Harry Potter do the entire first book in a coffee shop? Well, at least thats the PR! Just think - we might have no Harry Potter if her local coffee shop (cafe) had kicked her out. I'll leave that up to you, if you think it's a good thing!

25 points by inovica 17y ago

Hmm. As a coffee shop owner this is interesting. I was thinking more along the lines of getting a megaphone for my baristas so they can loudly shame the deadbeats. Most of my clientèle are students so the internet access is pretty key. I have noticed a few obviously non-student types hanging out looking for jobs online. Which is cool unless they are bringing their own drinks. Which happens.

yankeeracer73 17y ago
As a non-student (with a job) that works fairly often at coffee houses, I try to not always buy the cheapest drink, put a little extra money in the tip jar, etc. understanding that sitting there for 4 hours working and spending $3 is not optimal for the health of the business. I'm curious, however if you've ever considered any kind of alternative business models besides just charging for the Internet access or for the electricity? I've thought about what kind of "value added" services I could charge people for realistically if I had my own place and I haven't come up with much. Do your economics really work with a bunch of students coming in and sitting for hours?
- christonog 17y ago
  One suggestion I think would work is cater to user or student study groups. Maybe offer a discount to the group if enough show. Or possibly reserve seating for a nominal charge, or with a minimum $ purchase. I know it would have been beneficial and a "value add" for me to know that my study group of 8 would have guaranteed seating and beverages.
  - dan_the_welder 17y ago
    Student groups typically in my experience don't have any money. Administering 'reservations' is a PITA and I think you would end up dealing with no-shows and pissing off drop ins and regulars.
- dan_the_welder 17y ago
  You good customer sir, I salute you!
- pbhj 17y ago
  "value added" You don't need that just sniff the traffic for credit card and ID information; rewrite packets with affiliate IDs link requests so that your affiliate link is used; grab copies of business docs etc.. Should be enough there to recoup your costs, especially with some blackmail thrown in for good measure. (Yes, I know, HackerNews-ers don't like jokes, yes, it was supposed to be a joke.)
- dan_the_welder 17y ago
  Yankeeracer, It is my observation after 5 years in the coffee house biz is that it is an inherently low margin situation. You can't charge for wifi since the other guy gives it away free. Alternative business models? I chose to sell more food in addition to just drinks. I tried shows but that just drives out the regular customers. The main thing is just educate the customers so they care about the business and support you willingly. Get a big selection of drinks, bottled etc, so people can get what they like. The money maker is probably booze but I am not going to go there since it would significantly change the atmosphere. It might also cause problems given that we are open 24/7 and the alcohol license people might not like that.
cubix 17y ago
I've seen a few places that offer an hour or two of free access with the code printed on the receipt. This always seemed like a reasonable solution to me. What are your thoughts on that option?
- dan_the_welder 17y ago
  The hardware for that authentication setup is (or was) expensive. I just block a few ports and a few of the download intensive domains.

sid0 17y ago

Oh no, how will I be a rock star writing Rails code in TextMate on my MBP now? :(

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
cesare 17y ago
I was about to ask the same question.
lut4rp 17y ago
Don't be, use Redcar (www.redcareditor.com) on your linux box :-) At least editors across *nix are faaar better than ones on Windows.
pingswept 17y ago
I am proud to say it took me a few moments to figure out what MBP stands for.

CalmQuiet 17y ago

What a great business plan: Harrass the jobless who are working on job applications (or maybe a startup?). Think they'll become loyal customers once they're employed? Weird business idea: figure out how to be supportive toward the down-and-(temp.)out techies (and their laptops) so you have a tech-friendly reputation. [ If you don't, some of them will open shops that will compete with yours. ]

robryan 17y ago
There is a fine line that has to be drawn though, can't let people not buying anything sit there all day in the hope that in the future they will start buying a decent amount.
- dan_the_welder 17y ago
  Things are getting tight for people. I imagine some people have gotten rid of their internet at home or used to get it at work. Then the only way to have connectivity is at a hot spot, what else are you going to do?
  - paulbaumgart 17y ago
    Go to the library.
pbhj 17y ago
If you let the "waifs and strays" in those same people when they're better off will consider themselves above your establishment and go somewhere more expensive that doesn't let in the riff-raff. IMO.

thras 17y ago

When I read this the other day, I wondered how many laptop abusers there are compared to people who sit with their laptop and continue to buy things. Because this gets rid of both. Maybe the economy has gotten bad enough recently to tip the scale too far.

olefoo 17y ago
It may just be New York. I haven't seen any instances of laptop use being discouraged, except for non-customers. And the rule of no outside food and drink makes perfect sense.

indiejade 17y ago

So far, this appears to be largely a New York phenomenon, though San Francisco's Coffee Bar does now put out signs when the shop is crowded asking laptop users to share tables and make space for other customers. Cool; I'm never moving to NY. It's highly unlikely that many SF or SV places could actually "get away" with kicking out their paying customers and maintain any kind of loyal customer base. It's really a symbiotic relationship -- being nice to the laptop wielders makes it much more likely that they'll be nice to your business in online reviews and contexts.

jcw 17y ago

As far as I know, Starbucks locations allow you two hours of wifi access along with a purchase. Seems reasonable to me.

mhb 17y ago
Seems at least an hour and a half better than reasonable.
chaosmachine 17y ago
This is the only reason they get my business over a closer and much cheaper coffee shop (with no wifi).

DanielStraight 17y ago

I always thought that allowing customers to sit around was the coffee shop business model. It's like Barnes & Noble versus previous bookstores. Barnes & Noble encourages you to sit down and read books you have no intention of buying. They're smart enough to know that if you're in the store for 2 hours at a time on a regular basis, you're going to buy SOMETHING. I buy a lot of stuff at Barnes & Noble even though Amazon is generally cheaper. I go there all the time because it's such a cool place to shop, and I buy stuff because I see it and I'm like, "I WANT!" Anyway, my impression was always that Starbucks and others had the same idea. If you let customers chill for a few hours, they're going to buy stuff. I know I do. If I'm going to sit and read or sit and use a laptop, I'll buy a good drink and some kind of snack. If I want to stay after I finish that, I'll buy something else. I guess the problem is now customers aren't buying stuff, which sadly coffee shops are fighting in less-than-optimal ways. The problem is, I think, that there is no optimal way that coffee shop owners can do anything. Customers need to be reasonable and support the businesses that are giving them such a nice place to hang out and get online.

huhtenberg 17y ago
> Barnes & Noble encourages you to sit down and read books Don't know about BN, but I noticed recently that their Canadian version called Chapters now have substantially fewer chairs than they did a year ago. In smaller stores chairs are gone completely. There's also virtually no wall space to lean against, and they generally discourage from sitting on the floor. > If you let customers chill for a few hours, they're going to buy stuff. Let's say you sit for 4 hours and buy two cups of coffee. If the shop is packed, your chair could instead serve 5-6 lunch customers in a matter of just two hours, each spending considerably more than you. On the other hand if the shop is half-empty, it's nice to have people sitting around, because it creates crowd. So if you add 1 and 1, you will arrive at the exact policy described in the article - no idlers during the lunch hours.
- thingie 17y ago
  I wouldn't like to spend few hours in a packed shop, would you?
- 17y ago

natch 17y ago

It's odd that some people seem to be assuming everyone is either surfing or job hunting. From having talked to people, I think more often it's people making stuff, being creative, getting stuff done - some amazing projects and products get created in cafes. I love seeing laptops out in coffee shops. When a cafe is welcoming of laptops, I always tip better: paper only.

mcantor 17y ago

I was flabbergasted at the account of people bringing in their own tea bags or home-made sandwiches. Kudos to the coffee shop owners for trying to accommodate them by adding sandwiches to their repertoire, but I'm not surprised that it didn't change much. If someone comes in with a teabag and a PB&J so they can cuddle up in the corner with their laptop all day, I have no compassion; coffee shops need to stay in business, and to stay in business there needs to be place for paying customers to sit. Conversely, kicking someone out when the place is almost empty sounds like just awful PR to me. It's an intuitive distinction: "It's busy, we need space for people to sit," vs. "It's empty, feel free to hang out until it gets busy." What's complicated about that?

pbhj 17y ago
Even if they're "cuddle[d] up in the corner" then they're still using electric, still leaving crumbs on the floor, putting dirty feet on furniture, still going to use the washrooms, etc.. They may seem like little things but they're real costs. I think I'd aim for a tech solution of providing a ticket with purchases over X amount (coffee + danish price) with one hours free log-on. You either then pay for additional web or buy more products or leave.
dan_the_welder 17y ago
A coffee house is attempting to be an open public space while making money on the drink concession. Some people think it's just fine to take advantage of the public space and not use the concession. Those people are clueless or jerks and fail to understand that the space is only as open as the owner wants it to be. It's a fine line.

inovica 17y ago

Didn't the woman who wrote Harry Potter do the entire first book in a coffee shop? Well, at least thats the PR! Just think - we might have no Harry Potter if her local coffee shop (cafe) had kicked her out. I'll leave that up to you, if you think it's a good thing!