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>They're there to get paid Everyone is there to get paid. >when one of the guys always flakes out when the clock hits 17 Doing your job is not "flaking out".

by copergi 13y ago

MortenK 13y ago
1) Of course, but if you do not care at all for the business, the product or your team, your not exactly a paragon of the model employee are you? 2) Leaving at 17 under ordinary circumstances is not flaking out. If there is a major crisis which happens in average maybe once every three months, and you consistently can't be arsed to put in some extra hours of effort while your team mates and managers are, then yes, you are flaking out.
- copergi 13y ago
  >but if you do not care at all for the business Your business? Of course not. Unless I have equity, why would I fall for the "you need to care about the company even though it doesn't care about you" scam? >or your team You are the one screwing my team, not me. >your not exactly a paragon of the model employee are you I would certainly hope not. I try to me a model human. I have no interest in being a model employee. If you want a slave, buy someone else. >If there is a major crisis which happens in average maybe once every three months, and you consistently can't be arsed to put in some extra hours of effort while your team mates and managers are, then yes, you are flaking out If that is part of my job, sure. But you are aiming for a world record in strawmanning with that one. Remember the discussion is about employers feeling entitled to owning employees time?
  - MortenK 13y ago
    "Remember the discussion is about employers feeling entitled to owning employees time?" No, that's actually not at all what this discussion is about. That's what OP's situation is about. My post made two points: 1) If a company is mismanaged or just plain taking advantage of you by requiring regular overtime, then leave such a company. 2) A company (not OP's company) who is well managed and does not require regular overtime, pay their wages on time etc, should be able to expect at least a little bit dedication from their employees. No you don't have to tattoo the product name on your chest, but it would suit you to help out your managers and colleagues in case of (rarely occurring) emergencies.
    - copergi 13y ago
      >should be able to expect at least a little bit dedication from their employees No they shouldn't. They should expect exactly what they pay for, me to show up and do my job and then leave. If you want me to be invested in the company, then I need a stake in the company. It isn't complicated.
- lowmagnet 13y ago
  Who says a person has to be a paradigm of a model employee? I don't get how we got to this point. That sounds like a work/life imbalance to me if you 'give your all' for a company and that's a 'meets expectations' on a review. I don't no-life it; I come in at about the same time every day and leave about the same time. If the work is really interesting, I'll surely stick around later, but there's no reason to work 9-10 hours a day if there's no emergency.
  - MortenK 13y ago
    Entirely agree. My post makes two points: 1) It should be very rare that work above the normal 7-8 hours is required. If it is common, you are in a dysfunctional software development organization. My advice to OP in this case is to leave. 2) If you and your peers normally work 7-8 hours, it is not unreasonable to expect (for compensation of course), an extra effort in terms of overtime / weekend work in times of extraordinary crisis / emergency.
- kenko 13y ago
  Why is leaving after five the way one demonstrates caring about the business/product/team? Why isn't it just as plausible to say: "I care about the business/product/team, which is why I leave at 5 every day, or shortly thereafter---after all, I want to be refreshed for the following day's work, and don't want to resent time demands the business places on me, etc."? The idea that if I give a shit about something of course I'll spend a bunch of extra time on it and devalue everything else is pernicious. Even a model employee can leave at five.
  - MortenK 13y ago
    "Why is leaving after five the way one demonstrates caring about the business/product/team?" It is not. The way you demonstrate your lack of care is if you insist to leave, even in times of uncommon crisis. My points from the original post: 1) If it's business as usual = Work the 7-8 hours. 2) If the business has constant emergencies or otherwise requires you to regularly work more than 7-8 hours = It's a badly managed company and you should leave if you aren't in a position to change things. 3) If the business very rarely encounters emergencies: Stick around if you reasonably can, and help your managers and team members get the emergency resolved if this is within your skills and area of responsibility.

>They're there to get paid Everyone is there to get paid. >when one of the guys always flakes out when the clock hits 17 Doing your job is not "flaking out".

by copergi 13y ago

>They're there to get paid Everyone is there to get paid. >when one of the guys always flakes out when the clock hits 17 Doing your job is not "flaking out".

MortenK 13y ago

1) Of course, but if you do not care at all for the business, the product or your team, your not exactly a paragon of the model employee are you? 2) Leaving at 17 under ordinary circumstances is not flaking out. If there is a major crisis which happens in average maybe once every three months, and you consistently can't be arsed to put in some extra hours of effort while your team mates and managers are, then yes, you are flaking out.

copergi 13y ago
>but if you do not care at all for the business Your business? Of course not. Unless I have equity, why would I fall for the "you need to care about the company even though it doesn't care about you" scam? >or your team You are the one screwing my team, not me. >your not exactly a paragon of the model employee are you I would certainly hope not. I try to me a model human. I have no interest in being a model employee. If you want a slave, buy someone else. >If there is a major crisis which happens in average maybe once every three months, and you consistently can't be arsed to put in some extra hours of effort while your team mates and managers are, then yes, you are flaking out If that is part of my job, sure. But you are aiming for a world record in strawmanning with that one. Remember the discussion is about employers feeling entitled to owning employees time?
- MortenK 13y ago
  "Remember the discussion is about employers feeling entitled to owning employees time?" No, that's actually not at all what this discussion is about. That's what OP's situation is about. My post made two points: 1) If a company is mismanaged or just plain taking advantage of you by requiring regular overtime, then leave such a company. 2) A company (not OP's company) who is well managed and does not require regular overtime, pay their wages on time etc, should be able to expect at least a little bit dedication from their employees. No you don't have to tattoo the product name on your chest, but it would suit you to help out your managers and colleagues in case of (rarely occurring) emergencies.
  - copergi 13y ago
    >should be able to expect at least a little bit dedication from their employees No they shouldn't. They should expect exactly what they pay for, me to show up and do my job and then leave. If you want me to be invested in the company, then I need a stake in the company. It isn't complicated.
lowmagnet 13y ago
Who says a person has to be a paradigm of a model employee? I don't get how we got to this point. That sounds like a work/life imbalance to me if you 'give your all' for a company and that's a 'meets expectations' on a review. I don't no-life it; I come in at about the same time every day and leave about the same time. If the work is really interesting, I'll surely stick around later, but there's no reason to work 9-10 hours a day if there's no emergency.
- MortenK 13y ago
  Entirely agree. My post makes two points: 1) It should be very rare that work above the normal 7-8 hours is required. If it is common, you are in a dysfunctional software development organization. My advice to OP in this case is to leave. 2) If you and your peers normally work 7-8 hours, it is not unreasonable to expect (for compensation of course), an extra effort in terms of overtime / weekend work in times of extraordinary crisis / emergency.
kenko 13y ago
Why is leaving after five the way one demonstrates caring about the business/product/team? Why isn't it just as plausible to say: "I care about the business/product/team, which is why I leave at 5 every day, or shortly thereafter---after all, I want to be refreshed for the following day's work, and don't want to resent time demands the business places on me, etc."? The idea that if I give a shit about something of course I'll spend a bunch of extra time on it and devalue everything else is pernicious. Even a model employee can leave at five.
- MortenK 13y ago
  "Why is leaving after five the way one demonstrates caring about the business/product/team?" It is not. The way you demonstrate your lack of care is if you insist to leave, even in times of uncommon crisis. My points from the original post: 1) If it's business as usual = Work the 7-8 hours. 2) If the business has constant emergencies or otherwise requires you to regularly work more than 7-8 hours = It's a badly managed company and you should leave if you aren't in a position to change things. 3) If the business very rarely encounters emergencies: Stick around if you reasonably can, and help your managers and team members get the emergency resolved if this is within your skills and area of responsibility.