4 ms·

Religion is no better substitute to alcoholism!

by marlin 13y ago

Dale1 13y ago
+1 on this. Religion can take you down some dangerous paths too. Stick to scientific and medical methods.
- subversively 13y ago
  I agree. It is also important to avoid the pseudoscience in the scientific establishment though; for example, the entire psychiatric manual has been thoroughly discredited in the 70s, but that is not communicated openly.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- randomflavor 13y ago
  it's good that aa uses the 'god as you understand him' which most people just use that as meaning 'something outside yourself'. its a way to have a consciousness shift and perception change away from negative self talk and see reality as it is not as you interpret it. it can be religious for some, it can just be 'the great unknown' for others. really makes no difference. just that theres something other than your own mind telling you the answers in your head with great authority. its really just a mind trick/hack to get out of a thought loop that leads to harm.
  - aestra 13y ago
    >it's good that aa uses the 'god as you understand him' which most people just use that as meaning 'something outside yourself'. Have you read the AA "big book?" If you have it is very clear it refers to the Judeo-Christian God with many quotes from the Bible. Its section on non-believers is completely offensive (to me). It basically says "accept god or die."
    - randomflavor 13y ago
      it does explicitly say god as you understand him - but i do know what you mean. its a shame that get's in the way for you tho, as there are alot of tools in there that if put to use - does provide alot of relief - alot more than drugs and alcohol provide.
      - aestra 13y ago
        >it does explicitly say god as you understand him Sorta. Read here: http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm tell me it refers to any other God. The "as you understand him" part is somewhat a cop-out. Only monotheism here!! >as there are alot of tools in there that if put to use - does provide alot of relief - For some people, yes. For other people, it is offensive garbage.
    - BinaryAcid 13y ago
      > Its section on non-believers is completely offensive (to me). It basically says "accept god or die." There is no section to non-believers. There is a chapter to agnostics.
      - aestra 13y ago
        Nope. http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf "if that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experi- ence will conquer. To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alter natives to face. But it isn’t so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life —or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted."
stan_rogers 13y ago
The vocabulary of AA is unfortunate. It has a historical underpinning (AA is essentially a single-purpose offshoot of an oddball "first century Christianity" feel-good movement) and it is incredibly difficult to find a way clear of the "AA cult" within AA. While I don't like it, I can (to a limited extent) understand it - people who have recovered are highly reluctant to mess with the program as they understand it. That said, there are a lot of us atheists (and, of course, people whose religious/spiritual beliefs, if they have them, are incompatible with the ever-present whiff of Christianity ) who have managed to recover in AA. The steps (with one exception, explained later) can be divorced from the idea of the supernatural, and actually boil down to an effective cognitive/behavioural therapy. (They have been re-written many times, but because of frictions with mainstream AA, it's difficult to find the secularized versions published anywhere outside of the agnostic/atheist groups.) The only fly in the ointment, I suppose, would be the fifth step, which requires one to posit an all-knowing entity. It doesn't require believing that one exists; it's more a recognition that trying to hide things from yourself, to rationalise things that aren't rational, or to take on more blame or responsibility than you honestly ought to own is futile and counterproductive. There are more than a handful of us working to fix this. I wish I could say the battle is an easy one. Frankly, one gets a little tired of hearing (after nearly thirty years sober) that if I don't get God, I'll get drunk - from people who are still riding the pink cloud. If one looks hard enough, one can find rational people and groups in AA; one day, they may even be listed with the other groups (as we generally were until just a few years ago). I'm going to put on my optimist hat in the meantime and read the big push-back as the death throes of something whose time has passed.
- aestra 13y ago
  >can be divorced from the idea of the supernatural, and actually boil down to an effective cognitive/behavioural therapy. So lets stop it with all the mumbo jumbo crap and go to real CBT.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - stan_rogers 13y ago
aestra 13y ago
Many people I know have replaced their drug addiction with a religion addiction and have become intolerable to be around. My brother in law is the worst.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

Religion is no better substitute to alcoholism!

by marlin 13y ago

Religion is no better substitute to alcoholism!

Dale1 13y ago

+1 on this. Religion can take you down some dangerous paths too. Stick to scientific and medical methods.

subversively 13y ago
I agree. It is also important to avoid the pseudoscience in the scientific establishment though; for example, the entire psychiatric manual has been thoroughly discredited in the 70s, but that is not communicated openly.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
randomflavor 13y ago
it's good that aa uses the 'god as you understand him' which most people just use that as meaning 'something outside yourself'. its a way to have a consciousness shift and perception change away from negative self talk and see reality as it is not as you interpret it. it can be religious for some, it can just be 'the great unknown' for others. really makes no difference. just that theres something other than your own mind telling you the answers in your head with great authority. its really just a mind trick/hack to get out of a thought loop that leads to harm.
- aestra 13y ago
  >it's good that aa uses the 'god as you understand him' which most people just use that as meaning 'something outside yourself'. Have you read the AA "big book?" If you have it is very clear it refers to the Judeo-Christian God with many quotes from the Bible. Its section on non-believers is completely offensive (to me). It basically says "accept god or die."
  - randomflavor 13y ago
    it does explicitly say god as you understand him - but i do know what you mean. its a shame that get's in the way for you tho, as there are alot of tools in there that if put to use - does provide alot of relief - alot more than drugs and alcohol provide.
    - aestra 13y ago
      >it does explicitly say god as you understand him Sorta. Read here: http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm tell me it refers to any other God. The "as you understand him" part is somewhat a cop-out. Only monotheism here!! >as there are alot of tools in there that if put to use - does provide alot of relief - For some people, yes. For other people, it is offensive garbage.
  - BinaryAcid 13y ago
    > Its section on non-believers is completely offensive (to me). It basically says "accept god or die." There is no section to non-believers. There is a chapter to agnostics.
    - aestra 13y ago
      Nope. http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf "if that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experi- ence will conquer. To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alter natives to face. But it isn’t so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life —or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted."

stan_rogers 13y ago

The vocabulary of AA is unfortunate. It has a historical underpinning (AA is essentially a single-purpose offshoot of an oddball "first century Christianity" feel-good movement) and it is incredibly difficult to find a way clear of the "AA cult" within AA. While I don't like it, I can (to a limited extent) understand it - people who have recovered are highly reluctant to mess with the program as they understand it. That said, there are a lot of us atheists (and, of course, people whose religious/spiritual beliefs, if they have them, are incompatible with the ever-present whiff of Christianity ) who have managed to recover in AA. The steps (with one exception, explained later) can be divorced from the idea of the supernatural, and actually boil down to an effective cognitive/behavioural therapy. (They have been re-written many times, but because of frictions with mainstream AA, it's difficult to find the secularized versions published anywhere outside of the agnostic/atheist groups.) The only fly in the ointment, I suppose, would be the fifth step, which requires one to posit an all-knowing entity. It doesn't require believing that one exists; it's more a recognition that trying to hide things from yourself, to rationalise things that aren't rational, or to take on more blame or responsibility than you honestly ought to own is futile and counterproductive. There are more than a handful of us working to fix this. I wish I could say the battle is an easy one. Frankly, one gets a little tired of hearing (after nearly thirty years sober) that if I don't get God, I'll get drunk - from people who are still riding the pink cloud. If one looks hard enough, one can find rational people and groups in AA; one day, they may even be listed with the other groups (as we generally were until just a few years ago). I'm going to put on my optimist hat in the meantime and read the big push-back as the death throes of something whose time has passed.

aestra 13y ago
>can be divorced from the idea of the supernatural, and actually boil down to an effective cognitive/behavioural therapy. So lets stop it with all the mumbo jumbo crap and go to real CBT.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- stan_rogers 13y ago

aestra 13y ago

Many people I know have replaced their drug addiction with a religion addiction and have become intolerable to be around. My brother in law is the worst.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]