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""" Ben Wizner <snip> remarked at SXSW that problems with the no-fly list aren't going away; the world we're facing will look more like Kafka than Orwell. <snip

by ghoul2 13y ago

""" Ben Wizner <snip> remarked at SXSW that problems with the no-fly list aren't going away; the world we're facing will look more like Kafka than Orwell. <snip> Wizner said: And I worry about a world—not a world that looks like Orwell. """ I have noticed a tendency for US-media to use "world" for things which are essentially US-only phenomena. (I have never heard of the equivalent of a no-fly list outside the US and UK). The same statement, but referring to "USA" instead of world, would carry more impact to US citizens reading it, might make (some of) them work on the cause. But saying "World" depersonalizes the problem, and distances all readers from it. I have not seen this "USA is the World" tendency from media in other countries. Seems unique to US media.

PythonicAlpha 13y ago
Might be. But I see some other phenomenon: The World is adopting more and more the bad things in the US but never the good things of it. That one worries me.
- bruce511 13y ago
  Fortunately, so far, most countries have not adopted much of the American madness. With the exception of the UK, internal flights are a pleasure - simple metal detector, simple bag scan, and you're on your way. The US approach by the TSA gets more onerous every year and accomplishes nothing. Personally I think this is down to a certain inexperience the US has with terrorism. We still believe the world can be "made safe". We believe that -reacting- to terrorism is warranted. (and of course everything is now a " terrorist act") Most other countries have lived with terrorist behavior for decades or longer. They learned that it is precisely by not reacting that you fight back. They learned that no, the world is not safe, and you can get killed in a car accident today, or struck by lightning tomorrow, or indeed just by riding a bicycle. (more people die on bicycles than by terrorism - and more people in the US every MONTH die in cars than were killed on Sept 11.) The US currently has a teenager response to terrorism, and it will take years before they mature to where the rest of the world is already at. Until then, just like with any teenager, you have to let it work its course. The experience of others is seldom learned -experience doesn't work like that.
  - PythonicAlpha 13y ago
    I of course did not only mean the no-fly list. In Germany they also adopted or at least politics are trying to adopt some stupid ideas about terrorism. For example storing telephone connection meta-data. It is a widespread knowledge, that such a thing does not help in preventing terrorism, but they try and try to force it through parliament. Also in other areas, the US is always the biggest example. For example the managers in Germany always compare themselves in regards to the salaries of US managers. But when it goes to liability, they do no comparison (in Germany, you can as a manager do nearly anything and are not liable for anything). Also of course they do not compare their salaries to those of Japan -- because in Japan, the corporations are bigger and the managers get still much less. I guess, when the meta-data storage is threw legislation, they could come up with Germany's own no-fly list ...
    - heinrich5991 13y ago
      Source for the widespread knowledge?
      - chopin 13y ago
        Probably not widespread knowledge, but here you go: http://www.heise.de/tp/news/Vorratsdatenspeicherung-zur-Terrorismusbekaempfung-Sinnlos-2002305.html http://www.heise.de/tp/news/Vorratsdatenspeicherung-zur-Terr...
  - philovivero 13y ago
    I don't know what "most countries" you're on about. I flew around Europe. I had spoons, fruits, water confiscated and thrown out by whatever the European equivalent of TSA is. In the Asias, I had an umbrella confiscated. I had prescription drugs threatened to be taken away until I paid the necessary bribe. I see strong indications of the export of USA bureaucracy and "way of life" around the world. It's a very convenient excuse for tyrants everywhere. "The USA is doing it, and they're very successful!"
pyre 13y ago
For many US citizens, the country is their 'world.' They may never leave the country in their lifetime. On the other hand, it's much more difficult to call your own country 'the world' when you border three other countries in such a way that you can live in one, go our clubbing all night in the other, and then have breakfast the next morning in the third...
- typicalrunt 13y ago
  Exactly. Looking at it from both worlds, I don't think a European adequately understands how large a country like the US (or Canada for that matter) is. Likewise an American would never understand the smallness of being, say, a Luxembourg citizen and travelling to France within a day. Totally different worlds. I always tell people to travel outside their comfort zones purely for this insight. One you experience how another culture lives it is hard to be close minded again.
  - aylons 13y ago
    I live in Brazil, a continent-sized country just like the US and I don't see this phenomenon here. I don't think this is the problem.
    - Hannan 13y ago
      The phenomenon only presents at 9 million km^2 and above. ;)
    - seestheday 13y ago
      I live in Canada. A significantly bigger country than the US. I don't think of Canada as being the world, nor does anyone I know. I think it actually has to do with the American media. It used to be worse. I remember seeing US news programs (we get them here in Canada) reporting on the weather, and they only showed the US. It was kind of funny, it was like weather patterns were dropping in from a void "up north".
  - tripzilch 13y ago
    > Likewise an American would never understand the smallness of being, say, a Luxembourg citizen and travelling to France within a day. Luxembourg even borders France, so you could "travel to France" in five minutes by just stepping over the border. Just like you could "travel to Mexico" .. or maybe that's a bit harder than five minutes because of border controls, maybe Canada? No? And, Luxembourg is so tiny, if you'd spend a day travelling "from Luxembourg to France", I'd argue you actually spent max half an hour travelling "from Luxembourg to France", and the most part of your day travelling "in France" ;-) Your point stands, of course.
lostlogin 13y ago
Not just the media. I remember someone explaining the meaning of The World Series to me as a kid. I don't think the explanation helped me much.

by ghoul2 13y ago

PythonicAlpha 13y ago

Might be. But I see some other phenomenon: The World is adopting more and more the bad things in the US but never the good things of it. That one worries me.

bruce511 13y ago
Fortunately, so far, most countries have not adopted much of the American madness. With the exception of the UK, internal flights are a pleasure - simple metal detector, simple bag scan, and you're on your way. The US approach by the TSA gets more onerous every year and accomplishes nothing. Personally I think this is down to a certain inexperience the US has with terrorism. We still believe the world can be "made safe". We believe that -reacting- to terrorism is warranted. (and of course everything is now a " terrorist act") Most other countries have lived with terrorist behavior for decades or longer. They learned that it is precisely by not reacting that you fight back. They learned that no, the world is not safe, and you can get killed in a car accident today, or struck by lightning tomorrow, or indeed just by riding a bicycle. (more people die on bicycles than by terrorism - and more people in the US every MONTH die in cars than were killed on Sept 11.) The US currently has a teenager response to terrorism, and it will take years before they mature to where the rest of the world is already at. Until then, just like with any teenager, you have to let it work its course. The experience of others is seldom learned -experience doesn't work like that.
- PythonicAlpha 13y ago
  I of course did not only mean the no-fly list. In Germany they also adopted or at least politics are trying to adopt some stupid ideas about terrorism. For example storing telephone connection meta-data. It is a widespread knowledge, that such a thing does not help in preventing terrorism, but they try and try to force it through parliament. Also in other areas, the US is always the biggest example. For example the managers in Germany always compare themselves in regards to the salaries of US managers. But when it goes to liability, they do no comparison (in Germany, you can as a manager do nearly anything and are not liable for anything). Also of course they do not compare their salaries to those of Japan -- because in Japan, the corporations are bigger and the managers get still much less. I guess, when the meta-data storage is threw legislation, they could come up with Germany's own no-fly list ...
  - heinrich5991 13y ago
    Source for the widespread knowledge?
    - chopin 13y ago
      Probably not widespread knowledge, but here you go: http://www.heise.de/tp/news/Vorratsdatenspeicherung-zur-Terrorismusbekaempfung-Sinnlos-2002305.html http://www.heise.de/tp/news/Vorratsdatenspeicherung-zur-Terr...
- philovivero 13y ago
  I don't know what "most countries" you're on about. I flew around Europe. I had spoons, fruits, water confiscated and thrown out by whatever the European equivalent of TSA is. In the Asias, I had an umbrella confiscated. I had prescription drugs threatened to be taken away until I paid the necessary bribe. I see strong indications of the export of USA bureaucracy and "way of life" around the world. It's a very convenient excuse for tyrants everywhere. "The USA is doing it, and they're very successful!"

pyre 13y ago

For many US citizens, the country is their 'world.' They may never leave the country in their lifetime. On the other hand, it's much more difficult to call your own country 'the world' when you border three other countries in such a way that you can live in one, go our clubbing all night in the other, and then have breakfast the next morning in the third...

typicalrunt 13y ago
Exactly. Looking at it from both worlds, I don't think a European adequately understands how large a country like the US (or Canada for that matter) is. Likewise an American would never understand the smallness of being, say, a Luxembourg citizen and travelling to France within a day. Totally different worlds. I always tell people to travel outside their comfort zones purely for this insight. One you experience how another culture lives it is hard to be close minded again.
- aylons 13y ago
  I live in Brazil, a continent-sized country just like the US and I don't see this phenomenon here. I don't think this is the problem.
  - Hannan 13y ago
    The phenomenon only presents at 9 million km^2 and above. ;)
  - seestheday 13y ago
    I live in Canada. A significantly bigger country than the US. I don't think of Canada as being the world, nor does anyone I know. I think it actually has to do with the American media. It used to be worse. I remember seeing US news programs (we get them here in Canada) reporting on the weather, and they only showed the US. It was kind of funny, it was like weather patterns were dropping in from a void "up north".
- tripzilch 13y ago
  > Likewise an American would never understand the smallness of being, say, a Luxembourg citizen and travelling to France within a day. Luxembourg even borders France, so you could "travel to France" in five minutes by just stepping over the border. Just like you could "travel to Mexico" .. or maybe that's a bit harder than five minutes because of border controls, maybe Canada? No? And, Luxembourg is so tiny, if you'd spend a day travelling "from Luxembourg to France", I'd argue you actually spent max half an hour travelling "from Luxembourg to France", and the most part of your day travelling "in France" ;-) Your point stands, of course.

lostlogin 13y ago

Not just the media. I remember someone explaining the meaning of The World Series to me as a kid. I don't think the explanation helped me much.