5 ms·

While very interesting, the scope of this study is limited by the fact that their data collection only goes back to January 2013, so anything that happened befo

While very interesting, the scope of this study is limited by the fact that their data collection only goes back to January 2013, so anything that happened before that was not considered. I don't want to defend Gox, but it is conceivable that they lost significant amounts of BTC prior to this via TM and were just doing business with a deficit of BTC.

duaneb 13y ago
> I don't want to defend Gox, but it is conceivable that they lost significant amounts of BTC prior to this via TM and were just doing business with a deficit of BTC Sure, but it's unlikely given the rate of ~1btc/day and the fact that it wasn't resolved until well after 2013.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
tlrobinson 13y ago
Has anyone tried analyzing the actual blockchain for likely malleated (malled?) transactions? Depending on which form of malleability was exploited (see: https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691 https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691) it should be fairly easy to separate "normal" transactions generated by "normal" clients and intentionally malleated transactions.
- fsckin 13y ago
  The past tense is "malleableized".
  - pygy_ 13y ago
    "Modified"?
    - Aqueous 13y ago
      Mauled.
    - fla 13y ago
      Reshaped
    - chalst 13y ago
      "Bent"? Analogy to bent money seems apt.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    Malleable is a descriptive adjective (not a verb)[1] Malleability is a property-noun (also not a verb)[2] These words do not have "past-tenses" [1] http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/malleable http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng... [2] http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/malleability http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/malleability
    - gojomo 13y ago
      The verb malleate (shape with a hammer), related to the adjective malleable (able to be shaped as with a hammer), has the past tense malleated (as grandparent comment properly intuits). http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/malleate#Verb http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/malleate#Verb
    - dredmorbius 13y ago
      FYI, GCIDE lists "malleate" citing 1913 webster as a transitive verb: Malleate \Mal"le*ate\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Malleated}; p. pr. & vb. n. {Malleating}.] [L. malleatus hammered, fr. malleus a hammer. See {Mall}, v. t.] To hammer; to beat into a plate or leaf. [1913 Webster]
      - 001sky 13y ago
        A transaction is not "malleable" in the hammer-hitting sense. It is only "malleable" in the abstract sense (of pliable). It makes more (common usage) sense to "exploit the transactions malleability" (pliability) than to say the transaction was "malleated" (ie, hit by a hammer). That's all I was trying to point out.
        dredmorbius 13y ago
        Given that "malleable"'s meaning has evolved from the same root, you're being pedantic.
- wyager 13y ago
  I've seen a lot of people using "mutated". There is not a good verbification of "malleable".
  - PhasmaFelis 13y ago
    Doesn't "malleable" literally mean something like "shapeable with a hammer," from the Latin malleus, "hammer"? Maybe the verb form should be "hammered."
    - scrollaway 13y ago
      I am a little more inclined to believe MtGox being hammered had something to do with this fiasco.
      - dredmorbius 13y ago
        Drunk on the Kool Aid....
  - gjm11 13y ago
    There's "malleate", which really truly does go with "malleable". But it has only the original literal meaning of "beat into shape with a hammer" and not the generalized meaning implicit in "malleable".
    - StavrosK 13y ago
      Eh, we can change that.
- maaku 13y ago
  "Mutated." "Malleability" is the property of transactions that aspects of their serialization format can be changed without invalidating them. Actually changing transactions is called "mutation", the past tense of which is "mutated".
  - carbocation 13y ago
    "Mutability" would make sense in that context rather than "malleability", no?
    - maaku 13y ago
      Yes, but "malleability" is the established word in the technical literature.
- olalonde 13y ago
  Yes it would be possible to detect "malleated" transactions with high confidence for certain classes of malleability[0]. I'm not aware of anyone having done such analysis yet. [0] The types of transactions that are less likely to catch false positives would probably be those that have "superfluous scriptSig operations". For other classes of malleability, it would be more difficult to tell whether a given transaction was the result of a malleability attack or if it was just a transaction produced by an alternative client.
devindotcom 13y ago
It's certainly extrapolation to go back beyond Jan 2013 but I don't think it's unreasonable extrapolation, since it's a strong trend. Let's hope some enterprising individual may volunteer transaction records from years past for continued analysis.
- broolstoryco 13y ago
  The thing is that GOX may have experienced a major theft via TM prior to 2013, fixed the bug and operated with a BTC deficit. In this case, extrapolation is useless.
  - devindotcom 13y ago
    Just because there exist other possibilities doesn't make what appears to be the mostly likely extrapolation useless. What evidence suggests such a major malleability theft did occur?

duaneb 13y ago

> I don't want to defend Gox, but it is conceivable that they lost significant amounts of BTC prior to this via TM and were just doing business with a deficit of BTC Sure, but it's unlikely given the rate of ~1btc/day and the fact that it wasn't resolved until well after 2013.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

tlrobinson 13y ago

Has anyone tried analyzing the actual blockchain for likely malleated (malled?) transactions? Depending on which form of malleability was exploited (see: https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691 https://gist.github.com/sipa/8907691) it should be fairly easy to separate "normal" transactions generated by "normal" clients and intentionally malleated transactions.

fsckin 13y ago
The past tense is "malleableized".
- pygy_ 13y ago
  "Modified"?
  - Aqueous 13y ago
    Mauled.
  - fla 13y ago
    Reshaped
  - chalst 13y ago
    "Bent"? Analogy to bent money seems apt.
- 001sky 13y ago
  Malleable is a descriptive adjective (not a verb)[1] Malleability is a property-noun (also not a verb)[2] These words do not have "past-tenses" [1] http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/malleable http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng... [2] http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/malleability http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/malleability
  - gojomo 13y ago
    The verb malleate (shape with a hammer), related to the adjective malleable (able to be shaped as with a hammer), has the past tense malleated (as grandparent comment properly intuits). http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/malleate#Verb http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/malleate#Verb
  - dredmorbius 13y ago
    FYI, GCIDE lists "malleate" citing 1913 webster as a transitive verb: Malleate \Mal"le*ate\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Malleated}; p. pr. & vb. n. {Malleating}.] [L. malleatus hammered, fr. malleus a hammer. See {Mall}, v. t.] To hammer; to beat into a plate or leaf. [1913 Webster]
    - 001sky 13y ago
      A transaction is not "malleable" in the hammer-hitting sense. It is only "malleable" in the abstract sense (of pliable). It makes more (common usage) sense to "exploit the transactions malleability" (pliability) than to say the transaction was "malleated" (ie, hit by a hammer). That's all I was trying to point out.
      - dredmorbius 13y ago
        Given that "malleable"'s meaning has evolved from the same root, you're being pedantic.
wyager 13y ago
I've seen a lot of people using "mutated". There is not a good verbification of "malleable".
- PhasmaFelis 13y ago
  Doesn't "malleable" literally mean something like "shapeable with a hammer," from the Latin malleus, "hammer"? Maybe the verb form should be "hammered."
  - scrollaway 13y ago
    I am a little more inclined to believe MtGox being hammered had something to do with this fiasco.
    - dredmorbius 13y ago
      Drunk on the Kool Aid....
- gjm11 13y ago
  There's "malleate", which really truly does go with "malleable". But it has only the original literal meaning of "beat into shape with a hammer" and not the generalized meaning implicit in "malleable".
  - StavrosK 13y ago
    Eh, we can change that.
maaku 13y ago
"Mutated." "Malleability" is the property of transactions that aspects of their serialization format can be changed without invalidating them. Actually changing transactions is called "mutation", the past tense of which is "mutated".
- carbocation 13y ago
  "Mutability" would make sense in that context rather than "malleability", no?
  - maaku 13y ago
    Yes, but "malleability" is the established word in the technical literature.
olalonde 13y ago
Yes it would be possible to detect "malleated" transactions with high confidence for certain classes of malleability[0]. I'm not aware of anyone having done such analysis yet. [0] The types of transactions that are less likely to catch false positives would probably be those that have "superfluous scriptSig operations". For other classes of malleability, it would be more difficult to tell whether a given transaction was the result of a malleability attack or if it was just a transaction produced by an alternative client.

devindotcom 13y ago

It's certainly extrapolation to go back beyond Jan 2013 but I don't think it's unreasonable extrapolation, since it's a strong trend. Let's hope some enterprising individual may volunteer transaction records from years past for continued analysis.

broolstoryco 13y ago
The thing is that GOX may have experienced a major theft via TM prior to 2013, fixed the bug and operated with a BTC deficit. In this case, extrapolation is useless.
- devindotcom 13y ago
  Just because there exist other possibilities doesn't make what appears to be the mostly likely extrapolation useless. What evidence suggests such a major malleability theft did occur?