5 ms·

Do you support employees being fired for supporting gay marriage then? I don't see any difference in the two positions (both are using their paychecks to advan

Do you support employees being fired for supporting gay marriage then? I don't see any difference in the two positions (both are using their paychecks to advanced a political cause), except that you personally agree with one position and not the other.

wpietri 13y ago
The difference is that only one of those positions in a boss is threatening. Take interracial marriage as a parallel. If you are in a mixed-race marriage and your boss has tried to prevent interracial marriage, you could reasonably feel threatened. Whereas if your boss supports equality, you won't worry whether you are in a same-race or mixed-race marriage.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  Threatened how?
  - wpietri 13y ago
    Threatened with the sort of discrimination that minority groups often experience from people who have an irrational bias against them.
    - twoodfin 13y ago
      Sorry, when did those threats happen?
      - wpietri 13y ago
        I said "reasonably feel threatened". You don't have to have someone directly threaten you to reasonably feel threatened.
        twoodfin 13y ago
        OK, so what was the reasonable cause to feel threatened?
        wpietri 13y ago
        That your boss has helped strip you of your civil rights.
- DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
  If my boss paid money to a political cause against mix-marriages, but inside of work took no action to discriminate against people who were in mixed marriages, I'd think he was an asshat, and express such opinion, but not tie it to work any more than he was. Of course, I don't need to feel threatened by people disagreeing with life choices I've made just because they don't like them, nor do I need to retaliate against people having different views. I can act like a professional at work while expressing my dissent in the marketplace of ideas. I don't think Mozilla employees are wrong to say he's wrong on Twitter - I think they're wrong to link it to workplace politics sans any demonstration of him doing so.
  - wpietri 13y ago
    Do you often tell your boss he's an asshat? If so, you should read the people commenting here that the Mozilla employees speaking out may be making career-limiting moves. Regardless, it sounds like you haven't experienced significant workplace discrimination. Some people are prone to see discriminatory behavior as threatening because they have been threatened or harmed.
    - DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
      No one, as far as I'm aware, has pointed out examples of him behaving in a discriminatory manner - just that he holds a different view than them and engages in the political process. I certainly agree that workplace discrimination is a problem, I just don't think that one necessitates the other, as people are claiming here. > Do you often tell your boss he's an asshat? If so, you should read the people commenting here that the Mozilla employees speaking out may be making career-limiting moves. I'd expect that the career limiting move is largely that they're linking their speaking out to how things should be at Mozilla, rather than distancing their speaking out from workplace politics. But for the record, yes, I've told superiors, up to the CTO (while I was working in IT) that they're wrong on a number of social issues. I've also literally used the word "asshat" to describe people who hold opinions contrary to mine on those same issues on social media. I just don't go out of my way to link it in to workplace politics, and haven't worked for people petty enough to punish their subordinates for having differing opinions. If the Mozilla CEO is doing that, I'd be happy to see evidence of it. If the Mozilla CEO is discriminating at work because people are gay or support gay marriage, I'd like to see evidence of that. So far, all I see is people intentionally linking their dissent to workplace politics and people trying to punish him for having a view they don't like. Feel free to cite evidence to prove me wrong.
figglesonrails 13y ago
I wish I could give this post 10 upvotes. There is a reason that the US has employment laws [Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 Section 703(a)(1) & (2)] related to discrimination -- and its to stop precisely these sorts of questions from ever being questions in the first place.
PeterOliver 13y ago
Where did all of this moral relativism come from? What Eich believes goes against basic human rights. This isn't some argument about tax rates.
- notdonspaulding 13y ago
  Which basic human right does his belief go against, exactly? In all sincerity, if you had to write down a list of human rights, ordered by most-to-least basic, where would it fall on the list? Which rights would be more basic? Which less?
- twoodfin 13y ago
  I think free speech is a basic human right, too, but I wouldn't demand my CEO be fired if he gave a million dollars to try to get a Constitutional amendment passed to overturn Citizens United.
  - lotsofmangos 13y ago
    I'm sure there exists a political cause that if your CEO was funding it, would cause you to demand their resignation or make you leave the company. Say they are funding a campaign calling for speech restrictions of a group of which you are a member, for instance. You presumably have a line somewhere.
    - dkuntz2 13y ago
      You're positive about that? They could fund a campaign calling for speech restrictions for a group I'm a member of, and I'll probably feel peeved about it (or even stronger feelings), but so long as it doesn't affect the workplace, and the CEO is still doing their job, I wouldn't call for their resignation.
      - lotsofmangos 13y ago
        That's pretty lucky for them then, because you won't legally be able to after their bill goes through about speech in the workplace. edit - that's a pretty unfair hypothetical, and it would be directly affecting your work then, but I still suspect you have a line, if only to avoid things ever getting a little bit too Kafka.

wpietri 13y ago

The difference is that only one of those positions in a boss is threatening. Take interracial marriage as a parallel. If you are in a mixed-race marriage and your boss has tried to prevent interracial marriage, you could reasonably feel threatened. Whereas if your boss supports equality, you won't worry whether you are in a same-race or mixed-race marriage.

twoodfin 13y ago
Threatened how?
- wpietri 13y ago
  Threatened with the sort of discrimination that minority groups often experience from people who have an irrational bias against them.
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    Sorry, when did those threats happen?
    - wpietri 13y ago
      I said "reasonably feel threatened". You don't have to have someone directly threaten you to reasonably feel threatened.
      - twoodfin 13y ago
        OK, so what was the reasonable cause to feel threatened?
        wpietri 13y ago
        That your boss has helped strip you of your civil rights.
DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
If my boss paid money to a political cause against mix-marriages, but inside of work took no action to discriminate against people who were in mixed marriages, I'd think he was an asshat, and express such opinion, but not tie it to work any more than he was. Of course, I don't need to feel threatened by people disagreeing with life choices I've made just because they don't like them, nor do I need to retaliate against people having different views. I can act like a professional at work while expressing my dissent in the marketplace of ideas. I don't think Mozilla employees are wrong to say he's wrong on Twitter - I think they're wrong to link it to workplace politics sans any demonstration of him doing so.
- wpietri 13y ago
  Do you often tell your boss he's an asshat? If so, you should read the people commenting here that the Mozilla employees speaking out may be making career-limiting moves. Regardless, it sounds like you haven't experienced significant workplace discrimination. Some people are prone to see discriminatory behavior as threatening because they have been threatened or harmed.
  - DerpDerpDerp 13y ago
    No one, as far as I'm aware, has pointed out examples of him behaving in a discriminatory manner - just that he holds a different view than them and engages in the political process. I certainly agree that workplace discrimination is a problem, I just don't think that one necessitates the other, as people are claiming here. > Do you often tell your boss he's an asshat? If so, you should read the people commenting here that the Mozilla employees speaking out may be making career-limiting moves. I'd expect that the career limiting move is largely that they're linking their speaking out to how things should be at Mozilla, rather than distancing their speaking out from workplace politics. But for the record, yes, I've told superiors, up to the CTO (while I was working in IT) that they're wrong on a number of social issues. I've also literally used the word "asshat" to describe people who hold opinions contrary to mine on those same issues on social media. I just don't go out of my way to link it in to workplace politics, and haven't worked for people petty enough to punish their subordinates for having differing opinions. If the Mozilla CEO is doing that, I'd be happy to see evidence of it. If the Mozilla CEO is discriminating at work because people are gay or support gay marriage, I'd like to see evidence of that. So far, all I see is people intentionally linking their dissent to workplace politics and people trying to punish him for having a view they don't like. Feel free to cite evidence to prove me wrong.

figglesonrails 13y ago

I wish I could give this post 10 upvotes. There is a reason that the US has employment laws [Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 Section 703(a)(1) & (2)] related to discrimination -- and its to stop precisely these sorts of questions from ever being questions in the first place.

PeterOliver 13y ago

Where did all of this moral relativism come from? What Eich believes goes against basic human rights. This isn't some argument about tax rates.

notdonspaulding 13y ago
Which basic human right does his belief go against, exactly? In all sincerity, if you had to write down a list of human rights, ordered by most-to-least basic, where would it fall on the list? Which rights would be more basic? Which less?
twoodfin 13y ago
I think free speech is a basic human right, too, but I wouldn't demand my CEO be fired if he gave a million dollars to try to get a Constitutional amendment passed to overturn Citizens United.
- lotsofmangos 13y ago
  I'm sure there exists a political cause that if your CEO was funding it, would cause you to demand their resignation or make you leave the company. Say they are funding a campaign calling for speech restrictions of a group of which you are a member, for instance. You presumably have a line somewhere.
  - dkuntz2 13y ago
    You're positive about that? They could fund a campaign calling for speech restrictions for a group I'm a member of, and I'll probably feel peeved about it (or even stronger feelings), but so long as it doesn't affect the workplace, and the CEO is still doing their job, I wouldn't call for their resignation.
    - lotsofmangos 13y ago
      That's pretty lucky for them then, because you won't legally be able to after their bill goes through about speech in the workplace. edit - that's a pretty unfair hypothetical, and it would be directly affecting your work then, but I still suspect you have a line, if only to avoid things ever getting a little bit too Kafka.