5 ms·

No bitcoin will fix that because you can't reverse the charges. So there is no risk in shipping because you are 100% positive that you have the money you expect

by voxic11 13y ago

No bitcoin will fix that because you can't reverse the charges. So there is no risk in shipping because you are 100% positive that you have the money you expect you have.

grey-area 13y ago
So there is no risk in shipping because you are 100% positive that you have the money you expect you have. Only if you wait for a significant amount of time (days?) to verify the transaction. If you use a payment processor and they allow you to pass through transactions without verification, they are assuming that risk for you, but the risk is still there, and there is of course also risk caused by the currency volatility, chance of theft or loss of coins (very different from digital cash, more like paper cash), etc. I'd be interested to know how companies like bitpay hedge that risk, or the risks caused by Bitcoin volatility, if indeed they do.
- baddox 13y ago
  I think you're drastically overstating the risk of a double spend.
  - grey-area 13y ago
    Maybe so, I did mention other risks though.
- vertex-four 13y ago
  > Only if you wait for a significant amount of time (days?) to verify the transaction. What? Two or three confirmations are generally irreversible. Six - an hour, give or take - has been generally agreed to be absolutely irreversible since the original Bitcoin client (if it's not, there's something really wrong and Bitcoin isn't as valuable as we thought). If you're using a payment processor which takes risk that doesn't need to be there because you're not going to have your items in the post in an hour anyway (i.e. the vast majority of merchants), you're simply wasting money.
  - grey-area 13y ago
    Credit cards generally verify in seconds, so this is a significant difference, even if the time is hours (I'd read somewhere it could be days for 7 confirmations, but thanks for the correction if that is never true and it is hours) - that confirmation time varies wildly and is not predictable is also an issue. A lot of merchants ship almost immediately after orders are completed (e.g. digital goods), so introducing another delay is not great and a significant downside for both merchants and consumers. These and other technical challenges like blockchain size are probably soluble though, esp. if it hit scale and people were working on it, what worries me more in terms of mass adoption is the attitude to other risks like security, volatility and lack of insurance in the Bitcoin community, the insane requirements for sending in copies of passports etc that exchanges still have for purchasing bitcoins, and the fundamental problems caused by giving individual cryptographic keys perpetual value. It would certainly be nice to have a payment system not controlled by Visa/Mastercard, and I imagine one is coming, but I'm not convinced Bitcoin is that alternative because of the assumptions baked into its design that we need to exchange tokens in order to exchange value.
    - vertex-four 13y ago
      > the insane requirements for sending in copies of passports etc that exchanges still have for purchasing bitcoins. If you've ever bought foreign currency in a bureau de change, you'll have had to provide ID. It's the same set of laws which require Bitcoin exchanges to require ID. Take it up with your Government.
    - gnaritas 13y ago
      > Credit cards generally verify in seconds, so this is a significant difference Which is equivalent to a 0 confirmation transaction, so no it's not a difference. Cards can be reversed for months, that's what 6 confirmations is competing with.
      - grey-area 13y ago
        Which is equivalent to a 0 confirmation transaction, so no it's not a difference. The CC issuer is queried for the card status, funds available, address etc, and transactions are accepted or declined based on that information. Sometimes there's even an extra verification step directly contacting the issuers bank to check a passcode (SecureCode), and all that is reversible afterward if a mistake or fraud is detected. In what way is that analogous to a 0 confirmation irreversible bitcoin transaction?
danielweber 13y ago
What if I use bitcoins to buy something and then the vendor doesn't ship it to me? I fully expect this is part of the user experience Stripe will sell. If I buy something through Stripe using bitcoins and get stiffed, is Stripe going to tell me "too bad" when I complain to them? No, they won't, because Stripe isn't suicidal.
- gnaritas 13y ago
  Stripe isn't the vendor, they're the payment processor for the vendor; that decision isn't up to Stripe, it's up to the vendor. Your relationship isn't with Stripe, it's with the vendor. Your recourse is with the vendor as well, not Stripe. The solution to this is block chain escrow through a third party.
  - danielweber 13y ago
    Wait, so you really think that if I use Stripe to pay for something, and don't get it, that Stripe will tell me it's not their problem?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]

by voxic11 13y ago

No bitcoin will fix that because you can't reverse the charges. So there is no risk in shipping because you are 100% positive that you have the money you expect you have.

grey-area 13y ago

So there is no risk in shipping because you are 100% positive that you have the money you expect you have. Only if you wait for a significant amount of time (days?) to verify the transaction. If you use a payment processor and they allow you to pass through transactions without verification, they are assuming that risk for you, but the risk is still there, and there is of course also risk caused by the currency volatility, chance of theft or loss of coins (very different from digital cash, more like paper cash), etc. I'd be interested to know how companies like bitpay hedge that risk, or the risks caused by Bitcoin volatility, if indeed they do.

baddox 13y ago
I think you're drastically overstating the risk of a double spend.
- grey-area 13y ago
  Maybe so, I did mention other risks though.
vertex-four 13y ago
> Only if you wait for a significant amount of time (days?) to verify the transaction. What? Two or three confirmations are generally irreversible. Six - an hour, give or take - has been generally agreed to be absolutely irreversible since the original Bitcoin client (if it's not, there's something really wrong and Bitcoin isn't as valuable as we thought). If you're using a payment processor which takes risk that doesn't need to be there because you're not going to have your items in the post in an hour anyway (i.e. the vast majority of merchants), you're simply wasting money.
- grey-area 13y ago
  Credit cards generally verify in seconds, so this is a significant difference, even if the time is hours (I'd read somewhere it could be days for 7 confirmations, but thanks for the correction if that is never true and it is hours) - that confirmation time varies wildly and is not predictable is also an issue. A lot of merchants ship almost immediately after orders are completed (e.g. digital goods), so introducing another delay is not great and a significant downside for both merchants and consumers. These and other technical challenges like blockchain size are probably soluble though, esp. if it hit scale and people were working on it, what worries me more in terms of mass adoption is the attitude to other risks like security, volatility and lack of insurance in the Bitcoin community, the insane requirements for sending in copies of passports etc that exchanges still have for purchasing bitcoins, and the fundamental problems caused by giving individual cryptographic keys perpetual value. It would certainly be nice to have a payment system not controlled by Visa/Mastercard, and I imagine one is coming, but I'm not convinced Bitcoin is that alternative because of the assumptions baked into its design that we need to exchange tokens in order to exchange value.
  - vertex-four 13y ago
    > the insane requirements for sending in copies of passports etc that exchanges still have for purchasing bitcoins. If you've ever bought foreign currency in a bureau de change, you'll have had to provide ID. It's the same set of laws which require Bitcoin exchanges to require ID. Take it up with your Government.
  - gnaritas 13y ago
    > Credit cards generally verify in seconds, so this is a significant difference Which is equivalent to a 0 confirmation transaction, so no it's not a difference. Cards can be reversed for months, that's what 6 confirmations is competing with.
    - grey-area 13y ago
      Which is equivalent to a 0 confirmation transaction, so no it's not a difference. The CC issuer is queried for the card status, funds available, address etc, and transactions are accepted or declined based on that information. Sometimes there's even an extra verification step directly contacting the issuers bank to check a passcode (SecureCode), and all that is reversible afterward if a mistake or fraud is detected. In what way is that analogous to a 0 confirmation irreversible bitcoin transaction?

danielweber 13y ago

What if I use bitcoins to buy something and then the vendor doesn't ship it to me? I fully expect this is part of the user experience Stripe will sell. If I buy something through Stripe using bitcoins and get stiffed, is Stripe going to tell me "too bad" when I complain to them? No, they won't, because Stripe isn't suicidal.

gnaritas 13y ago
Stripe isn't the vendor, they're the payment processor for the vendor; that decision isn't up to Stripe, it's up to the vendor. Your relationship isn't with Stripe, it's with the vendor. Your recourse is with the vendor as well, not Stripe. The solution to this is block chain escrow through a third party.
- danielweber 13y ago
  Wait, so you really think that if I use Stripe to pay for something, and don't get it, that Stripe will tell me it's not their problem?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]