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If you had the option to tap a Bitcoin card and have the same experience, but save 3% on the transaction, would you?

by ejfox 13y ago

jeffgreco 13y ago
Not if the value of Bitcoin continues to fluctuate. How am I supposed to know if I can afford the cup of coffee without checking an exchange value?
tomasien 13y ago
Our user tests suggest that people will pay with their online banking when offered even a 1% discount, which is awesome. More than 40%.
dvcc 13y ago
What about consumer protections? Extended warranties, painless returns, fraud protection, etc. I am at no risk when using a credit card. Why would I even want to switch?
pbreit 13y ago
Probably not. I'd prefer the mileage, peace of mind that I have recourse, consolidated statementing, free 30 day loan, etc. And you would not save 3%. In fact, with Bitcoin's volatility, you might be charged 3% as you are now when you purchase in a different currency. Bitcoin enthusiasts have a difficult time understanding the cost of currency volatility.
- baddox 13y ago
  And yet, it's pretty common to pay with cash at any brick and mortar store, where you have no electronic protection (like chargebacks) and not even any physical protection for the cash you carry around.
  - srdev 13y ago
    If I pay with cash at a store then I'm literally walking out with the goods. For services, I've already received the services before paying. You're correct that there is no physical protection for the cash, but that is why most people do not carry lots of cash. Most store it in an insured bank account.
tomasien 13y ago
Can't respond to individual comments anymore, but consumer protection is something all payment processors must have, it's the law - it's called Regulation E and it's mandated by the government. We do it for ACH same as credit cards - CC's have convinced people it's something they created, but it is not - it's the law.
srdev 13y ago
It depends on a lot of other factors. Are my bitcoins on the card insured against loss or theft? Can I reverse the transaction if I get stiffed? If the answers are "no" and "no", then I'd probably still prefer my credit card for peace of mind. 3% isn't a huge discount in the grand scheme of things, and I get 1-3% rewards on my credit card for most purchases.
- deegles 13y ago
  You can't do any of that with cash either...
  - patmcc 13y ago
    Which is one of the good reasons for using credit cards - when my wallet gets stolen, the cash is gone and my credit card liability is $0. Bitcoin is very similar to cash in a lot of ways. This is both a pro and a con.
  - lclarkmichalek 13y ago
    I don't think the person you are replying to is talking about cash. Goalposts...
  - srdev 13y ago
    What does cash have to do with this discussion?
    - baddox 13y ago
      Cash is still an extremely common and well-accepted method of payment for brick and mortar stores, despite the fact that it (like Bitcoin) doesn't have all the consumer protection features of credit cards.
      - srdev 13y ago
        The context of the discussion was a bitcoin card vs a credit card. Cash has nothing to do with the conversation we're having. Don't move the goalposts. But I'll play the moving-the-goalpost game. For in-person transactions they have some similarities. They both have no chargeback or consumer protections, but we're receiving goods immediately so thats not a very large issue. Cash is instantaneous, unlike Bitcoin. Cash doesn't have exchange risk. Cash doesn't have transaction fees, while Bitcoin does. So cash is actually superior for an in-person transaction. If I'm going to do an in-person transaction and am not going to use my card, why would I not use cash? If I don't want to carry cash, why would I not use my card? And if its an online transaction, then chargebacks are definitely something I want, even with a trusted merchant. So whats the use case for bitcoin? The OP proposed one use case; I assume that there are people who find that valid. It is not a case that interests me, personally, and that prompted my response.
foobarqux 13y ago
But you won't save 3% because the payment processor is going to charge you, at least eventually. And if the fee is low enough that it competes with CC then the CC companies will simply lower their prices. The CC companies can afford a price war, everyone else can't.
hnnewguy 13y ago
>but save 3% on the transaction, would you It's my understanding that it's explicitly against the merchant agreement with the big CC players to have different prices for different payment methods. Of course, that's difficult to enforce in practice for every Ma and Pa operation, but if you're operating on any scale, where a significant portion of your revenue comes from CCs, that will be an issue.
- bequanna 13y ago
  Not so sure about that. Plenty of gas stations have a CC price/gal and a lower Cash price.
- aestra 13y ago
  >It's my understanding that it's explicitly against the merchant agreement with the big CC players to have different prices for different payment methods. It was. Then there was a class action lawsuit against Visa and Mastercard brought on by Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_Card_Interchange_Fee_and_Merchant_Discount_Antitrust_Litigation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_Card_Interchange_Fee_an... A part of the settlement that allows merchants to charge fees to customers paying via credit card in order to recoup swipe fees took effect on 27 January 2013. Debit cards and transactions in the ten states that prohibit credit-card surcharges will not be affected. Many large retailers, such as Wal-Mart and Target have opted not to impose surcharges.[6] In the event of a return, surcharges are refunded along with the purchase price of the merchandise.[7] The National Association of Convenience Stores, also known as the NACS, complained that this measure "merely make[s] retailers the collection agents for the banks."[8] The National Retail Federation said, "that card company fees are the problem and the surcharge story is a volume that belongs on the fiction aisles. The real threat to retailers and their customers continues to be price-fixed hidden fees that can only be cured by transparency and competition." [9] However, the way that gas stations got around the rules at first was they were allowed to offer a "cash discount." So CC price was the "real" price and if you paid with cash you got a discount. Same thing in the end though.

If you had the option to tap a Bitcoin card and have the same experience, but save 3% on the transaction, would you?

by ejfox 13y ago

If you had the option to tap a Bitcoin card and have the same experience, but save 3% on the transaction, would you?

Not if the value of Bitcoin continues to fluctuate. How am I supposed to know if I can afford the cup of coffee without checking an exchange value?

tomasien 13y ago

Our user tests suggest that people will pay with their online banking when offered even a 1% discount, which is awesome. More than 40%.

dvcc 13y ago

What about consumer protections? Extended warranties, painless returns, fraud protection, etc. I am at no risk when using a credit card. Why would I even want to switch?

pbreit 13y ago

Probably not. I'd prefer the mileage, peace of mind that I have recourse, consolidated statementing, free 30 day loan, etc. And you would not save 3%. In fact, with Bitcoin's volatility, you might be charged 3% as you are now when you purchase in a different currency. Bitcoin enthusiasts have a difficult time understanding the cost of currency volatility.

baddox 13y ago
And yet, it's pretty common to pay with cash at any brick and mortar store, where you have no electronic protection (like chargebacks) and not even any physical protection for the cash you carry around.
- srdev 13y ago
  If I pay with cash at a store then I'm literally walking out with the goods. For services, I've already received the services before paying. You're correct that there is no physical protection for the cash, but that is why most people do not carry lots of cash. Most store it in an insured bank account.

tomasien 13y ago

Can't respond to individual comments anymore, but consumer protection is something all payment processors must have, it's the law - it's called Regulation E and it's mandated by the government. We do it for ACH same as credit cards - CC's have convinced people it's something they created, but it is not - it's the law.

srdev 13y ago

It depends on a lot of other factors. Are my bitcoins on the card insured against loss or theft? Can I reverse the transaction if I get stiffed? If the answers are "no" and "no", then I'd probably still prefer my credit card for peace of mind. 3% isn't a huge discount in the grand scheme of things, and I get 1-3% rewards on my credit card for most purchases.

deegles 13y ago
You can't do any of that with cash either...
- patmcc 13y ago
  Which is one of the good reasons for using credit cards - when my wallet gets stolen, the cash is gone and my credit card liability is $0. Bitcoin is very similar to cash in a lot of ways. This is both a pro and a con.
- lclarkmichalek 13y ago
  I don't think the person you are replying to is talking about cash. Goalposts...
- srdev 13y ago
  What does cash have to do with this discussion?
  - baddox 13y ago
    Cash is still an extremely common and well-accepted method of payment for brick and mortar stores, despite the fact that it (like Bitcoin) doesn't have all the consumer protection features of credit cards.
    - srdev 13y ago
      The context of the discussion was a bitcoin card vs a credit card. Cash has nothing to do with the conversation we're having. Don't move the goalposts. But I'll play the moving-the-goalpost game. For in-person transactions they have some similarities. They both have no chargeback or consumer protections, but we're receiving goods immediately so thats not a very large issue. Cash is instantaneous, unlike Bitcoin. Cash doesn't have exchange risk. Cash doesn't have transaction fees, while Bitcoin does. So cash is actually superior for an in-person transaction. If I'm going to do an in-person transaction and am not going to use my card, why would I not use cash? If I don't want to carry cash, why would I not use my card? And if its an online transaction, then chargebacks are definitely something I want, even with a trusted merchant. So whats the use case for bitcoin? The OP proposed one use case; I assume that there are people who find that valid. It is not a case that interests me, personally, and that prompted my response.

foobarqux 13y ago

But you won't save 3% because the payment processor is going to charge you, at least eventually. And if the fee is low enough that it competes with CC then the CC companies will simply lower their prices. The CC companies can afford a price war, everyone else can't.

hnnewguy 13y ago

>but save 3% on the transaction, would you It's my understanding that it's explicitly against the merchant agreement with the big CC players to have different prices for different payment methods. Of course, that's difficult to enforce in practice for every Ma and Pa operation, but if you're operating on any scale, where a significant portion of your revenue comes from CCs, that will be an issue.

bequanna 13y ago
Not so sure about that. Plenty of gas stations have a CC price/gal and a lower Cash price.
aestra 13y ago
>It's my understanding that it's explicitly against the merchant agreement with the big CC players to have different prices for different payment methods. It was. Then there was a class action lawsuit against Visa and Mastercard brought on by Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_Card_Interchange_Fee_and_Merchant_Discount_Antitrust_Litigation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_Card_Interchange_Fee_an... A part of the settlement that allows merchants to charge fees to customers paying via credit card in order to recoup swipe fees took effect on 27 January 2013. Debit cards and transactions in the ten states that prohibit credit-card surcharges will not be affected. Many large retailers, such as Wal-Mart and Target have opted not to impose surcharges.[6] In the event of a return, surcharges are refunded along with the purchase price of the merchandise.[7] The National Association of Convenience Stores, also known as the NACS, complained that this measure "merely make[s] retailers the collection agents for the banks."[8] The National Retail Federation said, "that card company fees are the problem and the surcharge story is a volume that belongs on the fiction aisles. The real threat to retailers and their customers continues to be price-fixed hidden fees that can only be cured by transparency and competition." [9] However, the way that gas stations got around the rules at first was they were allowed to offer a "cash discount." So CC price was the "real" price and if you paid with cash you got a discount. Same thing in the end though.