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Although I have to accept that the premise is generally true, it is also a little concerning. Friends, close friends, seem like they're "supposed" to be a bond

Although I have to accept that the premise is generally true, it is also a little concerning. Friends, close friends, seem like they're "supposed" to be a bond like family: someone you're always there for in good times and bad. Instead, philosophies like the one espoused in this article transform that deep friendship into a friendship of "utility". It kind of reminds me of the political marriages sometimes considered typical of the upper classes in various historical societies: when "love" may not even be a factor in a marriage. I have a friend that has said similar things to this article. It makes me wonder: are we friends because we've been through a lot and share that bond, or is he my friend because I present a certain "utility" to his success? If the latter, does that in turn mean our friendship is discarded as soon as I fail to present that utility?

ripter 13y ago
Why does it have to be either or? Maybe your friend initially wanted to be friends with you for the utility reasons. But now over the years you've grown beyond that, you have a bond. This is one of the reasons it's so hard to get rid of toxic friends (not saying you are toxic, just an example.) You've formed that bond that keeps you together even after the utilitarian reason is long gone. Which begs the question, are there any friendships that don't start from a utilitarian reason? Why did you become friends in the first place? Did you work together? Have similar interests? Did you just need someone that wanted to play late night Japanese board games with you? No matter the reason, it doesn't make your bond any less real.
- kayoone 13y ago
  also depends on how you define a utilitarian reason. If you are new somewhere for example, you will try to get to know people just so you are not alone, and first connections that served to just not be alone might develop into great friendships. Aren't new connections and friendships always utilitarian in some shape or form in the beginning ?
  - steven777400 13y ago
    I think there is truth to this. Even beyond "new". Maybe I like to think that I'm friends with my friends because I care for them, but is there another reason; a subconscious utility I'm deriving from them too?
    - kayoone 13y ago
      Probably, even if its just having a good time.
sliverstorm 13y ago
is he my friend because I present a certain "utility" to his success? If the latter, does that in turn mean our friendship is discarded as soon as I fail to present that utility? Nobody sticks around the friendship they get nothing out of. Friendships are two-way streets. But it isn't like you will necessarily be used and thrown out like yesterday's garbage; as he grows, so do you. In a strong friendship, you grow together (in both senses of the word)
6d0debc071 13y ago
> Friends, close friends, seem like they're "supposed" to be a bond like family: someone you're always there for in good times and bad. I don't know about that. I don't want my happiness to come purely from people sacrificing their own. That'd be a horrifying way to live. I want people to support me, to a certain extent, in bad times, but I don't want to ruin their lives or drag them down with me in any significant way. Your friend has a shitty week? Sure, it'd be an ass hole thing to cut her out. Your friend is depressed for many years? At some point you've got to start thinking about yourself. At some point I'd want people to start thinking about themselves. On reflection, I don't think my concept of close friendship is someone who's always there for you. It's an equal, someone who's responsible for their own happiness and finds life richer for sharing it with me.
btilly 13y ago
If you want to have friends who will be there for you when things are hard, then you have to be willing to be there for them when things are hard. That said, you should still choose people who have the abilities and attitudes that allow you to be what you want to be. What does this mean in practice? Here is a real example. A feeling of personal responsibility is important. While good and bad things happen to all sorts of people for reasons out of their control, the ones who take personal responsibility for their situation turn out better. And not just better in the long run, they become better people. How fast? There was an interesting experiment on this where students were asked to read an essay, comment on it, and then were provided with the opportunity to make a small moral decision. Students who had just read an essay on determinism were less likely to make the moral choice than ones who had just read a similar essay on free will. The more we believe that things happen because they happen, the easier it is for us to justify immoral decisions like taking money instead of returning it to the owner. The more we believe that we are responsible for our own choices, the harder it becomes to justify petty theft. So stick with friends through thick and thin. But choose ones whose attitudes represent what you want to become.
- fellInchoate 13y ago
  Interesting. Do you happen to remember the actual moral choice they had to make? It seems to me a belief in free will encourages (potentially amoral) reprisals and vigilantism in a way that a belief in determinism doesn't necessarily encourage.
  - btilly 13y ago
    I'd have to look it up. But if you want to read it for yourself, the book I ran across it in was _Who's In Charge?_.

ripter 13y ago

Why does it have to be either or? Maybe your friend initially wanted to be friends with you for the utility reasons. But now over the years you've grown beyond that, you have a bond. This is one of the reasons it's so hard to get rid of toxic friends (not saying you are toxic, just an example.) You've formed that bond that keeps you together even after the utilitarian reason is long gone. Which begs the question, are there any friendships that don't start from a utilitarian reason? Why did you become friends in the first place? Did you work together? Have similar interests? Did you just need someone that wanted to play late night Japanese board games with you? No matter the reason, it doesn't make your bond any less real.

kayoone 13y ago
also depends on how you define a utilitarian reason. If you are new somewhere for example, you will try to get to know people just so you are not alone, and first connections that served to just not be alone might develop into great friendships. Aren't new connections and friendships always utilitarian in some shape or form in the beginning ?
- steven777400 13y ago
  I think there is truth to this. Even beyond "new". Maybe I like to think that I'm friends with my friends because I care for them, but is there another reason; a subconscious utility I'm deriving from them too?
  - kayoone 13y ago
    Probably, even if its just having a good time.

sliverstorm 13y ago

is he my friend because I present a certain "utility" to his success? If the latter, does that in turn mean our friendship is discarded as soon as I fail to present that utility? Nobody sticks around the friendship they get nothing out of. Friendships are two-way streets. But it isn't like you will necessarily be used and thrown out like yesterday's garbage; as he grows, so do you. In a strong friendship, you grow together (in both senses of the word)

6d0debc071 13y ago

> Friends, close friends, seem like they're "supposed" to be a bond like family: someone you're always there for in good times and bad. I don't know about that. I don't want my happiness to come purely from people sacrificing their own. That'd be a horrifying way to live. I want people to support me, to a certain extent, in bad times, but I don't want to ruin their lives or drag them down with me in any significant way. Your friend has a shitty week? Sure, it'd be an ass hole thing to cut her out. Your friend is depressed for many years? At some point you've got to start thinking about yourself. At some point I'd want people to start thinking about themselves. On reflection, I don't think my concept of close friendship is someone who's always there for you. It's an equal, someone who's responsible for their own happiness and finds life richer for sharing it with me.

btilly 13y ago

If you want to have friends who will be there for you when things are hard, then you have to be willing to be there for them when things are hard. That said, you should still choose people who have the abilities and attitudes that allow you to be what you want to be. What does this mean in practice? Here is a real example. A feeling of personal responsibility is important. While good and bad things happen to all sorts of people for reasons out of their control, the ones who take personal responsibility for their situation turn out better. And not just better in the long run, they become better people. How fast? There was an interesting experiment on this where students were asked to read an essay, comment on it, and then were provided with the opportunity to make a small moral decision. Students who had just read an essay on determinism were less likely to make the moral choice than ones who had just read a similar essay on free will. The more we believe that things happen because they happen, the easier it is for us to justify immoral decisions like taking money instead of returning it to the owner. The more we believe that we are responsible for our own choices, the harder it becomes to justify petty theft. So stick with friends through thick and thin. But choose ones whose attitudes represent what you want to become.

fellInchoate 13y ago
Interesting. Do you happen to remember the actual moral choice they had to make? It seems to me a belief in free will encourages (potentially amoral) reprisals and vigilantism in a way that a belief in determinism doesn't necessarily encourage.
- btilly 13y ago
  I'd have to look it up. But if you want to read it for yourself, the book I ran across it in was _Who's In Charge?_.