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Except no one knows how to rip and replace in this case. There are governments out there that are less complicated but offer more to their constituents than the

by _pi 17y ago

Except no one knows how to rip and replace in this case. There are governments out there that are less complicated but offer more to their constituents than the US government does. And no one in the US government wants to give up power or funding.

pj 17y ago
As an analogy, corporations are to countries as stock is to currency. So, if that is the case, perhaps we can help understand what is going to happen in the US by examining what has happened to companies in similar situations. What are some examples of the governments that are simpler and better? If no one wants to give up their power, what is going to happen? Revolution? Civil war? Domination by another power somewhere else?
- _pi 17y ago
  Austria for example, and Germany. They have social services that are built in and aren't nearly as bloated as the US government. However I don't agree with that analogy in this day and age where countries offer services countries should be seen as corporate entities.
  - pj 17y ago
    There are still a few differences. Countries are bounded by geography, but corporations can be in multiple countries. Also, people are born citizens of a country, but they aren't born customers or employees of a corporation. Countries, for its citizens, are monopolies in the governmental services they provide. It's hard to avoid paying taxes, but easy to avoid being a customer. But I see your point.
    - _pi 17y ago
      Not exactly, there's private healthcare in Canada, and in France, but the government provides free Healthcare. So they don't hold a monopoly unless it's legally enforced.
      - zargon 17y ago
        Do they refund your taxes if you decline to use government services? If not, it's the best kind of monopoly since they still get paid even if they don't provide the products or services... Also, in 6 out of 10 Canadian provinces, it is illegal to enter into a contract for health services that are publicly funded. (http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/164/6/825 http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/164/6/825) Still not a monopoly?
      - catzaa 17y ago
        This may be true. But France also has public schooling that is a mess. They have incredibly powerful teacher unions that rape the state budget. Since it is such a large amount of people, they have an incredible amount of political clout. France gets a lot less bang for buck education wise for the amount spent on education. It will also be interesting to compare the average remuneration for doctors in France and Canada when compared to other countries. I am not saying that the American system is not broken – but France and Canada’s health system isn’t the model to follow. For interest sake, Canada imports a hell of a lot of doctors. They simply do not train enough doctors to be self sufficient and must rely on the brain drain from 3rd world countries for their staff. (In the province of Saschatewan, more than 50% of doctors are from abroad – most prominently from South Africa). The amount spend on medical research in Canada is also a lot lower (per capita) than the USA.
        deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
        _pi 17y ago
        Well said, however no government is perfect. That being said.... The US has incredibly powerful teachers unions as well. The teacher's union is so powerful it's still technically on the Homeland Security list of terrorist organizations. Yet we don't have healthcare. Not only that there's a reason why IT and (real) Doctors aren't the most popular jobs (or majors) unlike Business and Psychology, it's because they're the #2 and #1 (respectively) most stressful occupations according to Forbes.
  - anamax 17y ago
    > Austria for example, and Germany. They have social services that are built in and aren't nearly as bloated as the US government. It depends on your definition of bloat. They do consume comparable amounts of GDP and they don't do some things that the US govt does. However, there's an even bigger difference - both are tiny by comparision to the US govt. Germany would be a big state and Austria a middle-size one.
  - sielskr 17y ago
    The subject of the OP is the climate for startups, and it is almost certain that the climate for startups is better in the U.S. than it is in Germany or Austria. Off-topic, but I recently considered relocating to Germany, and here is a brief synopsis of the main considerations. I saw figures on the web once saying that in the U.S. government (Federal, state and local) takes about 40% of the income of individuals and in Germany government takes about 50%. Take the figures with a grain of salt because I do not recall where I saw them or who compiled them. Homeschooling is illegal in Germany, and the law against homeschooling is enforced, making it very difficult to raise children there without sending your children to government schools or to private schools heavily regulated by the government. For example, it is illegal for private schools to pay their teachers less than the pay of teachers in government schools. The result of the heavy regulation of private schools is that almost everyone sends their children to government schools. It is easier for men to get laid in Germany than in the U.S. I cannot tell you why, but several sources have said so, including a French manufacturer of sex dolls (high-end ones costing thousands each) who said that his company's dolls sell much better in Japan and the U.S. than they do in Europe. His exact words were, "Sex is easier in Europe, but taxes are harder." So if you are a heterosexual man having trouble getting laid in the U.S., moving to France or Germany might solve the problem.
  - anamax 17y ago
    > Austria for example, and Germany. They have social services that are built in and aren't nearly as bloated as the US government. And, they're about as diverse as Minnesota.
    - cvg 17y ago
      There's New Zealand if you want more diversity.
      - anamax 17y ago
        78% European is diverse? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand#Demography http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand#Demography And, we're talking about less than 4.5m people. Compare it with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Chicago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Chicago , which has more people than live in all of New Zealand's 4 largest cities and has almost as many people as NZ's 16 main urban areas. And, that's not counting Chicago's suburbs. Chicago is only moderately diverse for a large American city - there are less than 50 languages spoken by more than 1000 people. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Los_Angeles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Los_Angeles for diversity (which has more people than all of new zealand's major urban areas, and I'm still ignoring suburbs and other major adjoining cities.)

by _pi 17y ago

pj 17y ago

As an analogy, corporations are to countries as stock is to currency. So, if that is the case, perhaps we can help understand what is going to happen in the US by examining what has happened to companies in similar situations. What are some examples of the governments that are simpler and better? If no one wants to give up their power, what is going to happen? Revolution? Civil war? Domination by another power somewhere else?

_pi 17y ago
Austria for example, and Germany. They have social services that are built in and aren't nearly as bloated as the US government. However I don't agree with that analogy in this day and age where countries offer services countries should be seen as corporate entities.
- pj 17y ago
  There are still a few differences. Countries are bounded by geography, but corporations can be in multiple countries. Also, people are born citizens of a country, but they aren't born customers or employees of a corporation. Countries, for its citizens, are monopolies in the governmental services they provide. It's hard to avoid paying taxes, but easy to avoid being a customer. But I see your point.
  - _pi 17y ago
    Not exactly, there's private healthcare in Canada, and in France, but the government provides free Healthcare. So they don't hold a monopoly unless it's legally enforced.
    - zargon 17y ago
      Do they refund your taxes if you decline to use government services? If not, it's the best kind of monopoly since they still get paid even if they don't provide the products or services... Also, in 6 out of 10 Canadian provinces, it is illegal to enter into a contract for health services that are publicly funded. (http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/164/6/825 http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/164/6/825) Still not a monopoly?
    - catzaa 17y ago
      This may be true. But France also has public schooling that is a mess. They have incredibly powerful teacher unions that rape the state budget. Since it is such a large amount of people, they have an incredible amount of political clout. France gets a lot less bang for buck education wise for the amount spent on education. It will also be interesting to compare the average remuneration for doctors in France and Canada when compared to other countries. I am not saying that the American system is not broken – but France and Canada’s health system isn’t the model to follow. For interest sake, Canada imports a hell of a lot of doctors. They simply do not train enough doctors to be self sufficient and must rely on the brain drain from 3rd world countries for their staff. (In the province of Saschatewan, more than 50% of doctors are from abroad – most prominently from South Africa). The amount spend on medical research in Canada is also a lot lower (per capita) than the USA.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
      - _pi 17y ago
        Well said, however no government is perfect. That being said.... The US has incredibly powerful teachers unions as well. The teacher's union is so powerful it's still technically on the Homeland Security list of terrorist organizations. Yet we don't have healthcare. Not only that there's a reason why IT and (real) Doctors aren't the most popular jobs (or majors) unlike Business and Psychology, it's because they're the #2 and #1 (respectively) most stressful occupations according to Forbes.
- anamax 17y ago
  > Austria for example, and Germany. They have social services that are built in and aren't nearly as bloated as the US government. It depends on your definition of bloat. They do consume comparable amounts of GDP and they don't do some things that the US govt does. However, there's an even bigger difference - both are tiny by comparision to the US govt. Germany would be a big state and Austria a middle-size one.
- sielskr 17y ago
  The subject of the OP is the climate for startups, and it is almost certain that the climate for startups is better in the U.S. than it is in Germany or Austria. Off-topic, but I recently considered relocating to Germany, and here is a brief synopsis of the main considerations. I saw figures on the web once saying that in the U.S. government (Federal, state and local) takes about 40% of the income of individuals and in Germany government takes about 50%. Take the figures with a grain of salt because I do not recall where I saw them or who compiled them. Homeschooling is illegal in Germany, and the law against homeschooling is enforced, making it very difficult to raise children there without sending your children to government schools or to private schools heavily regulated by the government. For example, it is illegal for private schools to pay their teachers less than the pay of teachers in government schools. The result of the heavy regulation of private schools is that almost everyone sends their children to government schools. It is easier for men to get laid in Germany than in the U.S. I cannot tell you why, but several sources have said so, including a French manufacturer of sex dolls (high-end ones costing thousands each) who said that his company's dolls sell much better in Japan and the U.S. than they do in Europe. His exact words were, "Sex is easier in Europe, but taxes are harder." So if you are a heterosexual man having trouble getting laid in the U.S., moving to France or Germany might solve the problem.
- anamax 17y ago
  > Austria for example, and Germany. They have social services that are built in and aren't nearly as bloated as the US government. And, they're about as diverse as Minnesota.
  - cvg 17y ago
    There's New Zealand if you want more diversity.
    - anamax 17y ago
      78% European is diverse? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand#Demography http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand#Demography And, we're talking about less than 4.5m people. Compare it with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Chicago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Chicago , which has more people than live in all of New Zealand's 4 largest cities and has almost as many people as NZ's 16 main urban areas. And, that's not counting Chicago's suburbs. Chicago is only moderately diverse for a large American city - there are less than 50 languages spoken by more than 1000 people. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Los_Angeles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Los_Angeles for diversity (which has more people than all of new zealand's major urban areas, and I'm still ignoring suburbs and other major adjoining cities.)