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Electricity and bandwidth are both resources that most people have to pay for, I would consider this theft and not a "victimless crime". The severity of financ

Electricity and bandwidth are both resources that most people have to pay for, I would consider this theft and not a "victimless crime". The severity of financial impact on the victim is irrelevant. If I steal tiny amounts of money ~0.01c from large amounts of people and accrued significant wealth from it, is it fine? Is it a "victimless crime" because the amount is so small?

negrit 13y ago
> The severity of financial impact on the victim is irrelevant. Not if it actually damage some parts of the phone like the battery because you have to charge it more often.
- saurik 13y ago
  You seem to mean "negligible", which is a different meaning than "irrelevant"; the point that was being made is that even if it were a "negligible" amount, the crime is not "victimless", hence the amount of the theft is "irrelevant": the point you seem to be making is that it might be a non-"negligible" amount, which is probably true, but at this point in the thread unrelated, and in fact according to the post you are responding to, "irrelevant" ;P.
- inheritancejon 13y ago
  I agree, its theft. If I borrow your bicycle all the time without you knowing it may be innocent enough, but it still causes wear and tear on the bicycle. I am thieving bicycle time from you that you paid for. If I had simply asked for it, you couldn't blame me, but alas I took it without your consent. [edit] Do either of these apps explicitly state that they will access/use device in this way?
  - termain 13y ago
    No it's not theft, it's conversion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(law)
    - talmand 13y ago
      That article is confusing. Someone cuts down trees from land they don't own to haul them away for lumber? That's clear theft to me. Removing furniture that you don't own from a cohabited dwelling and storing it without telling the owner the location? That's clear theft to me. Someone finds lost goods that they then keep for themselves without attempting to return them to the rightful owner? I can see that being something other than theft.
    - pattisapu 13y ago
      It's not XOR. Taking someone else's property can be both theft and conversion. Conversion is a tort, a matter of a lawsuit between parties. Theft is a crime, a matter between a citizen and the state.
      - termain 13y ago
        The criminal equivalent of conversion is criminal conversion.
rplnt 13y ago
A theft? Do you consider all installed apps to be stealing then?
- Tloewald 13y ago
  Seriously? An app that does what it says isn't stealing from you. An app that runs up your electricity bill and damages your phone without disclosing its behavior is clearly a different matter.
  - rplnt 13y ago
    We're not talking about damaging the phone now. As for electricity, lousy developers steal it as well. What's the difference if the stealthy app does what it says and is reasonable about mining? The cost for user is negligible. Edit: Just a note, I'm not saying this is OK for apps to do, but to call it a theft is ridiculous.
    - jarrett 13y ago
      > As for electricity, lousy developers steal it as well. What's the difference if the stealthy app does what it says and is reasonable about mining? I can think of at least two differences. First, the developer profits from one but not the other. Second, the developer intended one but not the other. We evaluate the morality of accidental waste differently from that of deliberate taking for personal gain.
      - userbinator 13y ago
        > We evaluate the morality of accidental waste differently from that of deliberate taking for personal gain. On the other hand, if you look at this from another perspective, inefficient software wasting power means no one gains. If the same power was being used for mining, then someone gains. If I were forced to choose between these two alternatives, I would definitely pick the latter.
        13y ago

negrit 13y ago

> The severity of financial impact on the victim is irrelevant. Not if it actually damage some parts of the phone like the battery because you have to charge it more often.

saurik 13y ago
You seem to mean "negligible", which is a different meaning than "irrelevant"; the point that was being made is that even if it were a "negligible" amount, the crime is not "victimless", hence the amount of the theft is "irrelevant": the point you seem to be making is that it might be a non-"negligible" amount, which is probably true, but at this point in the thread unrelated, and in fact according to the post you are responding to, "irrelevant" ;P.
inheritancejon 13y ago
I agree, its theft. If I borrow your bicycle all the time without you knowing it may be innocent enough, but it still causes wear and tear on the bicycle. I am thieving bicycle time from you that you paid for. If I had simply asked for it, you couldn't blame me, but alas I took it without your consent. [edit] Do either of these apps explicitly state that they will access/use device in this way?
- termain 13y ago
  No it's not theft, it's conversion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(law) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_(law)
  - talmand 13y ago
    That article is confusing. Someone cuts down trees from land they don't own to haul them away for lumber? That's clear theft to me. Removing furniture that you don't own from a cohabited dwelling and storing it without telling the owner the location? That's clear theft to me. Someone finds lost goods that they then keep for themselves without attempting to return them to the rightful owner? I can see that being something other than theft.
  - pattisapu 13y ago
    It's not XOR. Taking someone else's property can be both theft and conversion. Conversion is a tort, a matter of a lawsuit between parties. Theft is a crime, a matter between a citizen and the state.
    - termain 13y ago
      The criminal equivalent of conversion is criminal conversion.

rplnt 13y ago

A theft? Do you consider all installed apps to be stealing then?

Tloewald 13y ago
Seriously? An app that does what it says isn't stealing from you. An app that runs up your electricity bill and damages your phone without disclosing its behavior is clearly a different matter.
- rplnt 13y ago
  We're not talking about damaging the phone now. As for electricity, lousy developers steal it as well. What's the difference if the stealthy app does what it says and is reasonable about mining? The cost for user is negligible. Edit: Just a note, I'm not saying this is OK for apps to do, but to call it a theft is ridiculous.
  - jarrett 13y ago
    > As for electricity, lousy developers steal it as well. What's the difference if the stealthy app does what it says and is reasonable about mining? I can think of at least two differences. First, the developer profits from one but not the other. Second, the developer intended one but not the other. We evaluate the morality of accidental waste differently from that of deliberate taking for personal gain.
    - userbinator 13y ago
      > We evaluate the morality of accidental waste differently from that of deliberate taking for personal gain. On the other hand, if you look at this from another perspective, inefficient software wasting power means no one gains. If the same power was being used for mining, then someone gains. If I were forced to choose between these two alternatives, I would definitely pick the latter.
      - 13y ago