3 ms·

I agree. When I first meet someone over the phone or in person I'm in a social mood and prefer to talk rather than do a code dance for them. Once I'm alone at

by soc 17y ago

I agree. When I first meet someone over the phone or in person I'm in a social mood and prefer to talk rather than do a code dance for them. Once I'm alone at my desk though it's easy to get down to business. Think it would be cool if companies just said show up to work, and you work for free for the first week. After that both parties can decide if they want to continue.

zeckalpha 17y ago
That's basically how open source works.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
HeyLaughingBoy 17y ago
Maybe it's just me, but I tend to immediately discount any advice or proposals that suggest I work for free.
- pj 17y ago
  I would actually enjoy a one week type engagement to get a good fit for a company. It works both ways. You are selling your time. They are selling their environment. The problem is that the employer is accepting a lot more risk than the employee. Do you like paying for something you can't return and you can't get your money back for if it is crap? This is the situation a lot of companies are in. They hire someone, they pay them to write the code or build the project and it turns out it's all a lot of garbage and the company is out the money. This problem is really tainting our industry. I think a lot of people who call themselves programmers are really just some kids off the street who grabbed an open source package and started hacking away. They can build a website with some graphics and stuff, but they have no vision, no experience with large systems that are actually going to be used for any significant period of time. It is quite depressing actually.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 17y ago
    I would actually enjoy a one week type engagement to get a good fit for a company So would I. But since I'm WORKING for that one week, I expect to be paid for it. I really don't think anyone should be surprised by that!
    - pj 17y ago
      Hmm... I see your point. Perhaps we disagree on the word "work." When I think of "work" I think of moving a company in a desired direction. A lot of people think of work as "sitting in a cube." The question is, "How do we determine if the candidate's definition of work matches the employer's definition of work?" Maybe what you think you are doing when you are working is actually causing more problems and moving the company backwards because they are going to have to undo all the crappy code you wrote. I'm not meaning to attack you, I'm just trying to illustrate a point. Know what I mean? Maybe such an engagement could work out where, "If we hire you, we pay you for the week. If we fire you, we keep the money and you are out." This reduces the risk for the employer while also giving the employee a chance to examine the company and be paid if the work is satisfactory.
      - HeyLaughingBoy 17y ago
        Makes no difference: they hired me, they pay me. Doesn't matter if I create $1M in profit that first week or I sit there with my thumb up my ass. If I'm there I expect to be paid for it. Furthermore, I have no interest in reducing the risk for the employer: I expect them to do that. I reduce my own risks. If I'm the employer, then of course my perspective will shift 180deg. FFS, it's a job, not a hobby!
        nostrademons 17y ago
        I think pj's suggestion is a means of reducing the risk to the employer. The way they reduce their hiring risk is to make sure you can do the job before hiring.
      - gojomo 17y ago
- redorb 17y ago
  I think show up and work for a week - with your old pay + 20%, then we'll talk about further negotiations - (perhaps another 10% or so) ... or we can both walk away.
tocomment 17y ago
That's a really good idea. If wish we had that too.
stanleydrew 17y ago
I know a bunch of smaller startups that do the "come in for a week and we'll decide" out here in the bay area. Peanut Labs, e.g.
- maweaver 17y ago
  I've also seen a lot of "contract for hire" jobs at larger companies that are short (3-6 month) contracts, with an understanding that they are evaluating whether to hire you full-time at the end of the contract. If not, you still got some contract work and can move on.
Pistos2 17y ago
I thought it was very common practice to have a [paid] probation period, where the company is free to keep someone or let them go. Usually the period is less than 6 months. That seems a sensible approach to making sure your hiring decision was good or not.
- philwelch 17y ago
  Under US law (in most states), the company is free to let someone go at any time barring a specific contract to the contrary. I guess if you tell someone the first n months are a probationary period, they'll have their feelings less hurt if they're fired during that period.

by soc 17y ago

zeckalpha 17y ago

That's basically how open source works.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

HeyLaughingBoy 17y ago

Maybe it's just me, but I tend to immediately discount any advice or proposals that suggest I work for free.

pj 17y ago
I would actually enjoy a one week type engagement to get a good fit for a company. It works both ways. You are selling your time. They are selling their environment. The problem is that the employer is accepting a lot more risk than the employee. Do you like paying for something you can't return and you can't get your money back for if it is crap? This is the situation a lot of companies are in. They hire someone, they pay them to write the code or build the project and it turns out it's all a lot of garbage and the company is out the money. This problem is really tainting our industry. I think a lot of people who call themselves programmers are really just some kids off the street who grabbed an open source package and started hacking away. They can build a website with some graphics and stuff, but they have no vision, no experience with large systems that are actually going to be used for any significant period of time. It is quite depressing actually.
- HeyLaughingBoy 17y ago
  I would actually enjoy a one week type engagement to get a good fit for a company So would I. But since I'm WORKING for that one week, I expect to be paid for it. I really don't think anyone should be surprised by that!
  - pj 17y ago
    Hmm... I see your point. Perhaps we disagree on the word "work." When I think of "work" I think of moving a company in a desired direction. A lot of people think of work as "sitting in a cube." The question is, "How do we determine if the candidate's definition of work matches the employer's definition of work?" Maybe what you think you are doing when you are working is actually causing more problems and moving the company backwards because they are going to have to undo all the crappy code you wrote. I'm not meaning to attack you, I'm just trying to illustrate a point. Know what I mean? Maybe such an engagement could work out where, "If we hire you, we pay you for the week. If we fire you, we keep the money and you are out." This reduces the risk for the employer while also giving the employee a chance to examine the company and be paid if the work is satisfactory.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 17y ago
      Makes no difference: they hired me, they pay me. Doesn't matter if I create $1M in profit that first week or I sit there with my thumb up my ass. If I'm there I expect to be paid for it. Furthermore, I have no interest in reducing the risk for the employer: I expect them to do that. I reduce my own risks. If I'm the employer, then of course my perspective will shift 180deg. FFS, it's a job, not a hobby!
      - nostrademons 17y ago
        I think pj's suggestion is a means of reducing the risk to the employer. The way they reduce their hiring risk is to make sure you can do the job before hiring.
    - gojomo 17y ago
redorb 17y ago
I think show up and work for a week - with your old pay + 20%, then we'll talk about further negotiations - (perhaps another 10% or so) ... or we can both walk away.

tocomment 17y ago

That's a really good idea. If wish we had that too.

stanleydrew 17y ago

I know a bunch of smaller startups that do the "come in for a week and we'll decide" out here in the bay area. Peanut Labs, e.g.

maweaver 17y ago
I've also seen a lot of "contract for hire" jobs at larger companies that are short (3-6 month) contracts, with an understanding that they are evaluating whether to hire you full-time at the end of the contract. If not, you still got some contract work and can move on.

Pistos2 17y ago

I thought it was very common practice to have a [paid] probation period, where the company is free to keep someone or let them go. Usually the period is less than 6 months. That seems a sensible approach to making sure your hiring decision was good or not.

philwelch 17y ago
Under US law (in most states), the company is free to let someone go at any time barring a specific contract to the contrary. I guess if you tell someone the first n months are a probationary period, they'll have their feelings less hurt if they're fired during that period.