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I'll happily defend the man's right to hold all sorts of inappropriate and unpopular opinions. Do we want the tech community to be some kind of PC witch hunt, w

I'll happily defend the man's right to hold all sorts of inappropriate and unpopular opinions. Do we want the tech community to be some kind of PC witch hunt, where people who say or do unpopular things will be banned from employment? If that's the case, then that's wrong -- and it hurts the tech community at large for it to be that way. This is a witch hunt. It may be a witch hunt for good reasons, and for a cause I support (which I do), but let's get it clear: people are protesting because somebody has a job that has opinions they don't like. That's not a healthy attitude for any community and any job. I don't care if the man's a nazi. We live in a free country where diversity of opinion, problem-solving skills, and life experiences are invaluable for creative and productive team performance. This kind of thing is horrible and detestable, no matter what the man thinks in private. If he's a criminal, fire him. If he proposes some policy that is bad for his company, fire him. If he has some personality defect that is bringing harm to Mozilla's name, fire him. Otherwise? Leave him alone and let him do his job.

mikeash 13y ago
I believe they're protesting not his opinions, but his efforts to have his opinions turned into laws. It's one thing to be against gay marriage. It's quite another to spend one's own money on outlawing it.
- deleted 13y ago
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- DanielBMarkham 13y ago
  So let's play this through in an imaginary scenario. Next year I decide I like my neighbor, who's running for governor in the American Nazi party. I write him a check for $500. So now I can't work in the tech industry? Really? And this makes sense to folks? So you're saying thinking is okay, but acting is not. So is there some list of things I can and can't do and expect to have a job? Or is it just made up off-the-cuff by anybody with an internet search and an axe to grind? Do you realize how chilling this is? We're going to raise an entire generation of tech leadership who are acutely tuned never to do anything publicly that might indicate they have an opinion -- and are smart enough to hold all their real feelings inside, no matter how terrible. It's bad for those folks, it's bad for the industry, and it's bad for the rest of us. It's just bad all the way around. We all have to vote the same way, give money to the same causes, say the same things -- or face collective group punishment. And this seems sane?
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Please come up with a different scenario, because you're never going to convince me that it's wrong to try to discourage you from putting me in a concentration camp, or taking any steps to put in power someone who would.
    - DanielBMarkham 13y ago
      Sure, discourage me. Come out in the public square and let's have it out. You use your powers of free speech and persuasion and convince me I'm wrong. If I feel strongly about my opinions, I'll do the same to try to persuade you that you're wrong. Democracy at work. Start poking around to find whatever job I have and then try to get me fired? Really? That counts as "discouragement" in your book? You realize, of course, that there are some folks with really nasty opinions out there, folks who would do all the things you mention. Folks who would bring back slavery. And so on. I must have missed the big public outrage over these folks where we try to get them fired and otherwise interfere with their personal and work lives because of their political opinions. I also missed the part where this became acceptable behavior.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        As a practical matter, the less money you have, the less you can fund your attempts to have me killed.
        twoodfin 13y ago
        What about folks who think substantial U.S. carbon emission restrictions aren't a smart or effective policy and politically donate to that effect? There are likely a lot of people here who believe passionately that such inaction will lead to an uninhabitable planet. Serious, life-and-death stuff. Worth trying to get someone fired from their tech job?
        mikeash 13y ago
        I think there's a big difference that comes down to motivation. Somebody who tries to get a Nazi elected wants, at some level, for me to die. Thus, I cannot trust them to treat me well. Similarly, somebody who tries to get a gay marriage ban passed thinks that consenting adults should be prevented from marrying, and since there are no good rational reasons to do that (it's possible that there are some, but none have ever been presented to me, and there has been opportunity) then it indicates not only a prejudice against homosexuals, but a willingness to interfere in their lives. Again, they can't be trusted to treat homosexuals well in other contexts where they might have power. Somebody who fights against carbon emission restrictions isn't doing it because they want the planet to die. Instead, they have examined the information and come to a different conclusion. You might say it's the wrong conclusion, and I'd completely agree with that, but that is ultimately a failure of brainpower rather than of motivations. They presumably have good reasons for why they act that way, which means they can be reasoned with. That makes it much more feasible to deal with them, and ultimately makes them much less harmful.
deleted 13y ago
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lemming 13y ago
I don't care if the man's a nazi. I think it's fair to say you're probably in the minority there.

mikeash 13y ago

I believe they're protesting not his opinions, but his efforts to have his opinions turned into laws. It's one thing to be against gay marriage. It's quite another to spend one's own money on outlawing it.

deleted 13y ago
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DanielBMarkham 13y ago
So let's play this through in an imaginary scenario. Next year I decide I like my neighbor, who's running for governor in the American Nazi party. I write him a check for $500. So now I can't work in the tech industry? Really? And this makes sense to folks? So you're saying thinking is okay, but acting is not. So is there some list of things I can and can't do and expect to have a job? Or is it just made up off-the-cuff by anybody with an internet search and an axe to grind? Do you realize how chilling this is? We're going to raise an entire generation of tech leadership who are acutely tuned never to do anything publicly that might indicate they have an opinion -- and are smart enough to hold all their real feelings inside, no matter how terrible. It's bad for those folks, it's bad for the industry, and it's bad for the rest of us. It's just bad all the way around. We all have to vote the same way, give money to the same causes, say the same things -- or face collective group punishment. And this seems sane?
- mikeash 13y ago
  Please come up with a different scenario, because you're never going to convince me that it's wrong to try to discourage you from putting me in a concentration camp, or taking any steps to put in power someone who would.
  - DanielBMarkham 13y ago
    Sure, discourage me. Come out in the public square and let's have it out. You use your powers of free speech and persuasion and convince me I'm wrong. If I feel strongly about my opinions, I'll do the same to try to persuade you that you're wrong. Democracy at work. Start poking around to find whatever job I have and then try to get me fired? Really? That counts as "discouragement" in your book? You realize, of course, that there are some folks with really nasty opinions out there, folks who would do all the things you mention. Folks who would bring back slavery. And so on. I must have missed the big public outrage over these folks where we try to get them fired and otherwise interfere with their personal and work lives because of their political opinions. I also missed the part where this became acceptable behavior.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      As a practical matter, the less money you have, the less you can fund your attempts to have me killed.
      - twoodfin 13y ago
        What about folks who think substantial U.S. carbon emission restrictions aren't a smart or effective policy and politically donate to that effect? There are likely a lot of people here who believe passionately that such inaction will lead to an uninhabitable planet. Serious, life-and-death stuff. Worth trying to get someone fired from their tech job?
        mikeash 13y ago
        I think there's a big difference that comes down to motivation. Somebody who tries to get a Nazi elected wants, at some level, for me to die. Thus, I cannot trust them to treat me well. Similarly, somebody who tries to get a gay marriage ban passed thinks that consenting adults should be prevented from marrying, and since there are no good rational reasons to do that (it's possible that there are some, but none have ever been presented to me, and there has been opportunity) then it indicates not only a prejudice against homosexuals, but a willingness to interfere in their lives. Again, they can't be trusted to treat homosexuals well in other contexts where they might have power. Somebody who fights against carbon emission restrictions isn't doing it because they want the planet to die. Instead, they have examined the information and come to a different conclusion. You might say it's the wrong conclusion, and I'd completely agree with that, but that is ultimately a failure of brainpower rather than of motivations. They presumably have good reasons for why they act that way, which means they can be reasoned with. That makes it much more feasible to deal with them, and ultimately makes them much less harmful.

deleted 13y ago

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lemming 13y ago

I don't care if the man's a nazi. I think it's fair to say you're probably in the minority there.