4 ms·

Guy works on Java projects for 3 years. In this time wasnt able to produce a high quality project, blames language.

by cowls 13y ago

fuzzix 13y ago
Well, the Guy is pretty clever. I think, given the tools, he could produce high quality work. http://hop.perl.plover.com/ http://hop.perl.plover.com/ - seriously clever.
- cowls 13y ago
  Seriously Clever for A 10 year old book on perl basics is probably pushing it. No disrespect to the guy though I'm sure he is and general respect for publishing a book like that. I guess just limited exposure to Java
  - fuzzix 13y ago
    > Seriously Clever for A 10 year old book on perl basics is probably pushing it. Why is the age of this book relevant? It's not an overview of the basics. it's a 500+ page exploration of Perl's functional programming features, a topic rarely (if ever) covered in this depth.
  - swah 13y ago
    The other day I surprinsingly found more praise for HOP from a coder I admire: http://books.google.com.br/books?id=2kMIqdfyT8kC&pg=PT89&lpg=PT89&dq=%22higher+order+perl%22+coders+at+work&source=bl&ots=MkbsubIIDC&sig=3SWQT7uJeF5QWMeA1Tl0k7xeIl8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iFwxU_ChFaeA2gWug4DQCQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22higher%20order%20perl%22%20coders%20at%20work&f=false http://books.google.com.br/books?id=2kMIqdfyT8kC&pg=PT89&lpg... Time to re-read it, because when I first read it, I had to skim some parts. Probably applies to Python.
  - chromatic 13y ago
    That's like calling SICP a book on Scheme basics.
- chris_wot 13y ago
  Yes, the guy is very clever at putting down things that he didn't really like. The phrase "damning with faint praise" comes to mind, but upon reflection it doesn't really apply in this case. He's really damning it with criticism badly disguised as praise. Yes, I know that he says that he is negative and his praise comes across badly (he gives an example of him damning his blogging software). I suggest, if he is being sincere, that the problem is his attitude. If he isn't being sincere, then I'd say that he's not as clever as he thinks he is, or he just never had any passion for Java and so he actually hates it as he never mastered it. In terms of boilerplate code, I'd love to see his exact examples. With annotations, I've found that plenty of Java code is actually not verbose at all. If he churned out thousands of classes when actually he could have reduced the number of classes to 50, then that's an example of poor management and poor workmanship, certainly not a problem with the language. Here's the real issue: the article conflates a corporate environment that likes to measure productivity in klocs (or from the number of classes you create) with the tool that is being used. He even admits that he could have actually produced better code, just that nobody cared to correct him when he produced crap quality code. However, when it comes down to it, the real phrase that comes to mind is: YHBT. YHL. HAND. The guy is trolling you all. (Different languages have different failure modes. With Perl, the project might fail because you designed and implemented a pile of shit, but there is a clever workaround for any problem, so you might be able to keep it going long enough to hand it off to someone else, and then when it fails it will be their fault, not yours. With Haskell someone probably should have been fired in the first month for choosing to do it in Haskell.) The languages he praises so highly are now put down. Correction: in each case, he's dissing the programmers who wrote the crappy code and caused the project to fail, and he's damning the terrible management that didn't have good enough leadership and oversight to prevent the project failure.
  - kamaal 13y ago
    >>In terms of boilerplate code, I'd love to see his exact examples. Seriously, this is likely asking proof regarding the presence of sun during broad day light. >>With annotations, I've found that plenty of Java code is actually not verbose at all. Again. Are you really serious? >>If he churned out thousands of classes when actually he could have reduced the number of classes to 50, then that's an example of poor management and poor workmanship, certainly not a problem with the language. You certainly haven't ready his book 'Higher Order Perl'.
Pacabel 13y ago
Sometimes it is the tool that's to blame, you know. Even the best master carpenter wouldn't be able to build something as simple as an end table if he were given a pickle to use as a hammer, and an onion to use as a saw.
- arel 13y ago
  The tool seemed to be the right tool or at least good enough for the master carpenters of Hadoop, Elasticsearch, Cassandra, Zookeeper, Neo4J etc etc... and Google, Netflix, Twitter etc etc...
- cowls 13y ago
  That's a terrible analogy. More along the lines of using a sledge hammmer to crack a nut is probably more appropriate here. Java is very powerful but sometimes using it for very simple programs can be overkill Also, have you heard the saying: A bad workman blames his tools
  - Pacabel 13y ago
    Yes, I have heard that saying. It's a rather stupid one, because sometimes the tools are to blame, even when in the hands of the best expert there is.

Guy works on Java projects for 3 years. In this time wasnt able to produce a high quality project, blames language.

by cowls 13y ago

Guy works on Java projects for 3 years. In this time wasnt able to produce a high quality project, blames language.

Well, the Guy is pretty clever. I think, given the tools, he could produce high quality work. http://hop.perl.plover.com/ http://hop.perl.plover.com/ - seriously clever.

cowls 13y ago
Seriously Clever for A 10 year old book on perl basics is probably pushing it. No disrespect to the guy though I'm sure he is and general respect for publishing a book like that. I guess just limited exposure to Java
- fuzzix 13y ago
  > Seriously Clever for A 10 year old book on perl basics is probably pushing it. Why is the age of this book relevant? It's not an overview of the basics. it's a 500+ page exploration of Perl's functional programming features, a topic rarely (if ever) covered in this depth.
- swah 13y ago
  The other day I surprinsingly found more praise for HOP from a coder I admire: http://books.google.com.br/books?id=2kMIqdfyT8kC&pg=PT89&lpg=PT89&dq=%22higher+order+perl%22+coders+at+work&source=bl&ots=MkbsubIIDC&sig=3SWQT7uJeF5QWMeA1Tl0k7xeIl8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iFwxU_ChFaeA2gWug4DQCQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22higher%20order%20perl%22%20coders%20at%20work&f=false http://books.google.com.br/books?id=2kMIqdfyT8kC&pg=PT89&lpg... Time to re-read it, because when I first read it, I had to skim some parts. Probably applies to Python.
- chromatic 13y ago
  That's like calling SICP a book on Scheme basics.
chris_wot 13y ago
Yes, the guy is very clever at putting down things that he didn't really like. The phrase "damning with faint praise" comes to mind, but upon reflection it doesn't really apply in this case. He's really damning it with criticism badly disguised as praise. Yes, I know that he says that he is negative and his praise comes across badly (he gives an example of him damning his blogging software). I suggest, if he is being sincere, that the problem is his attitude. If he isn't being sincere, then I'd say that he's not as clever as he thinks he is, or he just never had any passion for Java and so he actually hates it as he never mastered it. In terms of boilerplate code, I'd love to see his exact examples. With annotations, I've found that plenty of Java code is actually not verbose at all. If he churned out thousands of classes when actually he could have reduced the number of classes to 50, then that's an example of poor management and poor workmanship, certainly not a problem with the language. Here's the real issue: the article conflates a corporate environment that likes to measure productivity in klocs (or from the number of classes you create) with the tool that is being used. He even admits that he could have actually produced better code, just that nobody cared to correct him when he produced crap quality code. However, when it comes down to it, the real phrase that comes to mind is: YHBT. YHL. HAND. The guy is trolling you all. (Different languages have different failure modes. With Perl, the project might fail because you designed and implemented a pile of shit, but there is a clever workaround for any problem, so you might be able to keep it going long enough to hand it off to someone else, and then when it fails it will be their fault, not yours. With Haskell someone probably should have been fired in the first month for choosing to do it in Haskell.) The languages he praises so highly are now put down. Correction: in each case, he's dissing the programmers who wrote the crappy code and caused the project to fail, and he's damning the terrible management that didn't have good enough leadership and oversight to prevent the project failure.
- kamaal 13y ago
  >>In terms of boilerplate code, I'd love to see his exact examples. Seriously, this is likely asking proof regarding the presence of sun during broad day light. >>With annotations, I've found that plenty of Java code is actually not verbose at all. Again. Are you really serious? >>If he churned out thousands of classes when actually he could have reduced the number of classes to 50, then that's an example of poor management and poor workmanship, certainly not a problem with the language. You certainly haven't ready his book 'Higher Order Perl'.

Pacabel 13y ago

Sometimes it is the tool that's to blame, you know. Even the best master carpenter wouldn't be able to build something as simple as an end table if he were given a pickle to use as a hammer, and an onion to use as a saw.

arel 13y ago
The tool seemed to be the right tool or at least good enough for the master carpenters of Hadoop, Elasticsearch, Cassandra, Zookeeper, Neo4J etc etc... and Google, Netflix, Twitter etc etc...
cowls 13y ago
That's a terrible analogy. More along the lines of using a sledge hammmer to crack a nut is probably more appropriate here. Java is very powerful but sometimes using it for very simple programs can be overkill Also, have you heard the saying: A bad workman blames his tools
- Pacabel 13y ago
  Yes, I have heard that saying. It's a rather stupid one, because sometimes the tools are to blame, even when in the hands of the best expert there is.