4 ms·

> they just aren't ready to strip the word "marriage" of the religious associations it holds for them. They haven't been to Vegas, have they?

by alxndr 13y ago

chc 13y ago
I agree that it doesn't seem like an entirely rational viewpoint. It's a very deeply personal thing for them. I'm just saying that their opposition to "gay marriage" doesn't necessarily mean they bear animosity toward gay people.
- alxndr 13y ago
  When someone says to me "I oppose gay marriage but I have no animosity towards gay people", I hear "I am unable to recognize my own animosity towards gay people".* * I suppose that doesn't hold for the abolish-all-marriage or separate-legal-and-religious-marriage folks.
  - chc 13y ago
    What I'm saying is that, if you talk to them, a surprising number of these people actually are essentially separate-legal-and-religious-marriage proponents. It's not that they want to deprive gay people of anything — they just have a religious act called "marriage" that is between a man and a woman and they feel like somebody is trying to take that away from them. They are fine with a secular institution that is open to gays and is identical to the legal concept of marriage as it exists today — they just don't want it getting mixed up with a religious institution that is very dear to them. (I'm not saying that everyone who supported Prop. 8 is this way either. Some of them really are hateful folk — but not all of them. What I'm saying is just that if you think everyone who supported Prop. 8 did so because they are spiteful toward gays, you are painting with way too broad a brush. It's a diverse bunch.)
    - alxndr 13y ago
      Yeah, I've heard similar things from Prop 8 supporters. But my personal take is that (for some, at least) the very deeply personal thing they feel, which they feel like someone is trying to take away, is actually antipathy towards people and lifestyles which they haven't in the past had to recognize as legitimate.
      - aaronbrethorst 13y ago
        I am rabidly liberal, think that marriage between two people—regardless of their gender identity, sexual orientation, etc.—should be legal in all 50 states, and also think that the government should get out of the 'marriage' business altogether. For the foreseeable future, we're stuck with the whole marriage thing for better or worse (hah), so we have to make the best of it.
    - jkyle 13y ago
      I get the concept. Basically, they're not opposed to gays being treated equally. They just want to keep it separate. Separate, but equal.
saraid216 13y ago
It is easier to pretend that Vegas is "over there" and thus the things that happen in Vegas are easy to dissociate oneself from. (i.e., "What happens in Vegas...")
- alxndr 13y ago
  But what the gays do over there in California does matter?
  - saraid216 13y ago
    For Californians, what gays do in California isn't "over there". It's "right here". You seem to be trying very hard to make pro-gay marriage arguments (and not succeeding at all, I should add), but you're arguing with people who agree with you on the political issue. I'm trying to help explain the phenomenon, which may provide a stepping stone to figuring out how to best convince people like chc's friends and family.
    - alxndr 13y ago
      By the same token, are the don't-redefine-marriage people who live in Vegas trying to shut down the Elvis Chapel? I've given up trying to convince people like chc's friends and family.
      - saraid216 13y ago
        > By the same token, are the don't-redefine-marriage people who live in Vegas trying to shut down the Elvis Chapel? I don't know. Are they? I'm not really abreast of Las Vegas politics. > I've given up trying to convince people like chc's friends and family. What are you hoping to achieve with this conversation, then? Moral high ground?
        alxndr 13y ago
        Trying to point out the silliness of the "redefine marriage" argument, I guess. Feel free to ignore me.

> they just aren't ready to strip the word "marriage" of the religious associations it holds for them. They haven't been to Vegas, have they?

by alxndr 13y ago

> they just aren't ready to strip the word "marriage" of the religious associations it holds for them. They haven't been to Vegas, have they?

chc 13y ago

I agree that it doesn't seem like an entirely rational viewpoint. It's a very deeply personal thing for them. I'm just saying that their opposition to "gay marriage" doesn't necessarily mean they bear animosity toward gay people.

alxndr 13y ago
When someone says to me "I oppose gay marriage but I have no animosity towards gay people", I hear "I am unable to recognize my own animosity towards gay people".* * I suppose that doesn't hold for the abolish-all-marriage or separate-legal-and-religious-marriage folks.
- chc 13y ago
  What I'm saying is that, if you talk to them, a surprising number of these people actually are essentially separate-legal-and-religious-marriage proponents. It's not that they want to deprive gay people of anything — they just have a religious act called "marriage" that is between a man and a woman and they feel like somebody is trying to take that away from them. They are fine with a secular institution that is open to gays and is identical to the legal concept of marriage as it exists today — they just don't want it getting mixed up with a religious institution that is very dear to them. (I'm not saying that everyone who supported Prop. 8 is this way either. Some of them really are hateful folk — but not all of them. What I'm saying is just that if you think everyone who supported Prop. 8 did so because they are spiteful toward gays, you are painting with way too broad a brush. It's a diverse bunch.)
  - alxndr 13y ago
    Yeah, I've heard similar things from Prop 8 supporters. But my personal take is that (for some, at least) the very deeply personal thing they feel, which they feel like someone is trying to take away, is actually antipathy towards people and lifestyles which they haven't in the past had to recognize as legitimate.
    - aaronbrethorst 13y ago
      I am rabidly liberal, think that marriage between two people—regardless of their gender identity, sexual orientation, etc.—should be legal in all 50 states, and also think that the government should get out of the 'marriage' business altogether. For the foreseeable future, we're stuck with the whole marriage thing for better or worse (hah), so we have to make the best of it.
  - jkyle 13y ago
    I get the concept. Basically, they're not opposed to gays being treated equally. They just want to keep it separate. Separate, but equal.

saraid216 13y ago

It is easier to pretend that Vegas is "over there" and thus the things that happen in Vegas are easy to dissociate oneself from. (i.e., "What happens in Vegas...")

alxndr 13y ago
But what the gays do over there in California does matter?
- saraid216 13y ago
  For Californians, what gays do in California isn't "over there". It's "right here". You seem to be trying very hard to make pro-gay marriage arguments (and not succeeding at all, I should add), but you're arguing with people who agree with you on the political issue. I'm trying to help explain the phenomenon, which may provide a stepping stone to figuring out how to best convince people like chc's friends and family.
  - alxndr 13y ago
    By the same token, are the don't-redefine-marriage people who live in Vegas trying to shut down the Elvis Chapel? I've given up trying to convince people like chc's friends and family.
    - saraid216 13y ago
      > By the same token, are the don't-redefine-marriage people who live in Vegas trying to shut down the Elvis Chapel? I don't know. Are they? I'm not really abreast of Las Vegas politics. > I've given up trying to convince people like chc's friends and family. What are you hoping to achieve with this conversation, then? Moral high ground?
      - alxndr 13y ago
        Trying to point out the silliness of the "redefine marriage" argument, I guess. Feel free to ignore me.