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They're making some pretty strange claims about capacity and number of cycles. In electric RC heli circles, batteries come along once in a while claiming to us

They're making some pretty strange claims about capacity and number of cycles. In electric RC heli circles, batteries come along once in a while claiming to use previously unknown techniques to improve the performance of existing cells and a few gullible people buy them. They never deliver on the promises. People who make (established) battery management circuits understand very well how to care for the cells, and claiming to beat the numbers published by the battery manufacturers by a wide margin is close to announcing an "Ambient Energy" device. [Edited to poke fun at idea, not person/company.]

thrownaway2424 13y ago
Yeah, it's obviously snake oil. If you had a technology that increased the charge-cycle lifetime of a battery by any substantial amount, you wouldn't be marketing a stupid plastic box for mactards. You'd be cashing billion-dollar checks twice a day.
- Blahah 13y ago
  if you read the article, you'd see they're working on OEM deals to get the tech into batteries across the board. The Box is just a nice consumer demo so people can get their hands on it now. Actually a pretty smart PR move. Also, the patent: https://www.google.com/patents/WO2013142964A1 https://www.google.com/patents/WO2013142964A1
  - thrownaway2424 13y ago
    That's a patent application, yes. Are you aware that the USPTO gets so many applications for perpetual motion patents that they have regulations forbidding them? Patent application does not in any way indicate feasibility.
    - Blahah 13y ago
      I was just providing the application so people could evaluate the technology, not suggesting it was evidence of anything.
    - resu_nimda 13y ago
      I believe the point was for you, with all of your infinite battery wisdom, to review the patent and possibly even use that to back up your hyperbolic "obviously snake oil" claim, but I'm not holding my breath.
  - XorNot 13y ago
    The box, judging from that patent, is unlikely to benefit from what they're doing. In fact I can't see how anymobile devices would - a laptop has 6 - 9 Li-Ion cells and needs all of them to run all the time. A cellphone has exactly 1. The patent is proposing they're going to use capacitors/inductors to do some type of pulsed battery charging/discharging while not connected to AC power. The thing is, there's no room to move on that - you're absolutely at the mercy of the quality of those cells, since you need all of them all the time when you're running on batteries. Worse, if you have say, 3 strings of 3 like in a laptop, and you shut-off 1 string, then you're increasing your current draw from the remaining cells and losing more power to internal resistance.
    - rdl 13y ago
      If you are using it as an external battery to another device with a battery, you actually can do interesting tricks and cut all power intermittently.
  - chillingeffect 13y ago
    You said >if you read the article, you'd see they're working on OEM deals I did read the article and didn't recall that, so I re-read. This is what I saw: >It’ll take some time for Gbatteries to get its technology embedded with third-party OEMs
    - Blahah 13y ago
      Good point - I came away with the inference that they are seeking to embed the tech. But as you've highlighted, they don't explicitly say that.
  - chillingeffect 13y ago
    p.s. It appears pulse-charging lithium batteries has been around since at least 1997, judging by all these patents [1] [1] https://www.google.com/search?tbm=pts&hl=en&q=Lithium+ion+fast+pulse+charger#hl=en&q=Lithium+ion+pulse+charger&tbm=pts https://www.google.com/search?tbm=pts&hl=en&q=Lithium+ion+fa...
- johnrob 13y ago
  How would you know your technology worked? Maybe a good test would be to build a plastic box for mac users.
  - bittercynic 13y ago
    You would know by testing it. This company is making an extraordinary claim regarding capacity and cycle-life, and they aren't showing extraordinary proof to back it up.
    - selectodude 13y ago
      I mean, they're letting you buy the damn thing, so once you purchase it, you can see if it holds up.
      - bittercynic 13y ago
        Yes, snake oil salesmen are usually happy to let you buy some snake oil.
        conkrete 13y ago
        I feel like YC would have enough snake oil radar to detect if this was bogus before backing them. They don't back just anyone after all.
        mrkurt 13y ago
        This is a little more difficult when knowledge moves faster than product delivery. "Snake oil salesmen" did their thing because they could move from community to community and stay ahead of the news about a fraud coming through. I have no idea if this battery thingy is all it's cracked up to be, but the group won't last that long if they don't deliver.
        qbrass 13y ago
        Pre-ordering solves that problem. The product is delivered to everybody at once, before any knowledge can spread.
- tlb 13y ago
  It turns out that even the most amazing technologies don't just automatically get you huge checks overnight. You have to build a business, starting with a first product, and grow from there.
  - thrownaway2424 13y ago
    Actually no, if this worked it would be a 30-minute meeting. <Gbatteries> Our patented technology extends the charge-cycle life of standard lithium-ion batteries by at least 200%, and we can prove it. <Panasonic> Great, we will license that. Here's a check for five billion dollars.
    - conkrete 13y ago
      Panasonic would NOT pay additional money in licensing to make less money by having their batteries last longer. Large companies like this make sure the batteries they use aren't interchangable or standardized. They certainly don't want to make batteries that you wouldn't want to replace. If you look at profit analysis of almost any product (like a panasonic camera), the profit margins are all in the accessories, like batteries.
      - masklinn 13y ago
        Go for Apple then, custom batteries, not user-replaceable, not retailed. They'll sign you a check for $10bn instead.
        conkrete 13y ago
        Fair enough I could see Apple doing this. Although if batteries last as long as indicated here they would have to up the cost nearly twice as much per battery to keep profits steady.
        masklinn 13y ago
        Anecdotally, I see few people replacing their apple device (for an other one) because of battery life, and conversely stories of apple stores replacing batteries/devices because of battery life issues are regular. All in all, I don't think they'd care. Their biggest business these days is phone & tablet, and battery life (and the failure thereof) is not the primary upgrade driver.
larrys 13y ago
"In electric RC heli circles" I was around when in order to fly an electric heli you needed to attach a power cord to a wall socket. I'm serious. Back when I started it was gas only (I made it up to 60 size). I remember seeing a demo at a local hobby shop where outback someone had prototyped an electric which was hovering with a 110v power cord plugged in by extension cord.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

thrownaway2424 13y ago

Yeah, it's obviously snake oil. If you had a technology that increased the charge-cycle lifetime of a battery by any substantial amount, you wouldn't be marketing a stupid plastic box for mactards. You'd be cashing billion-dollar checks twice a day.

Blahah 13y ago
if you read the article, you'd see they're working on OEM deals to get the tech into batteries across the board. The Box is just a nice consumer demo so people can get their hands on it now. Actually a pretty smart PR move. Also, the patent: https://www.google.com/patents/WO2013142964A1 https://www.google.com/patents/WO2013142964A1
- thrownaway2424 13y ago
  That's a patent application, yes. Are you aware that the USPTO gets so many applications for perpetual motion patents that they have regulations forbidding them? Patent application does not in any way indicate feasibility.
  - Blahah 13y ago
    I was just providing the application so people could evaluate the technology, not suggesting it was evidence of anything.
  - resu_nimda 13y ago
    I believe the point was for you, with all of your infinite battery wisdom, to review the patent and possibly even use that to back up your hyperbolic "obviously snake oil" claim, but I'm not holding my breath.
- XorNot 13y ago
  The box, judging from that patent, is unlikely to benefit from what they're doing. In fact I can't see how anymobile devices would - a laptop has 6 - 9 Li-Ion cells and needs all of them to run all the time. A cellphone has exactly 1. The patent is proposing they're going to use capacitors/inductors to do some type of pulsed battery charging/discharging while not connected to AC power. The thing is, there's no room to move on that - you're absolutely at the mercy of the quality of those cells, since you need all of them all the time when you're running on batteries. Worse, if you have say, 3 strings of 3 like in a laptop, and you shut-off 1 string, then you're increasing your current draw from the remaining cells and losing more power to internal resistance.
  - rdl 13y ago
    If you are using it as an external battery to another device with a battery, you actually can do interesting tricks and cut all power intermittently.
- chillingeffect 13y ago
  You said >if you read the article, you'd see they're working on OEM deals I did read the article and didn't recall that, so I re-read. This is what I saw: >It’ll take some time for Gbatteries to get its technology embedded with third-party OEMs
  - Blahah 13y ago
    Good point - I came away with the inference that they are seeking to embed the tech. But as you've highlighted, they don't explicitly say that.
- chillingeffect 13y ago
  p.s. It appears pulse-charging lithium batteries has been around since at least 1997, judging by all these patents [1] [1] https://www.google.com/search?tbm=pts&hl=en&q=Lithium+ion+fast+pulse+charger#hl=en&q=Lithium+ion+pulse+charger&tbm=pts https://www.google.com/search?tbm=pts&hl=en&q=Lithium+ion+fa...
johnrob 13y ago
How would you know your technology worked? Maybe a good test would be to build a plastic box for mac users.
- bittercynic 13y ago
  You would know by testing it. This company is making an extraordinary claim regarding capacity and cycle-life, and they aren't showing extraordinary proof to back it up.
  - selectodude 13y ago
    I mean, they're letting you buy the damn thing, so once you purchase it, you can see if it holds up.
    - bittercynic 13y ago
      Yes, snake oil salesmen are usually happy to let you buy some snake oil.
      - conkrete 13y ago
        I feel like YC would have enough snake oil radar to detect if this was bogus before backing them. They don't back just anyone after all.
      - mrkurt 13y ago
        This is a little more difficult when knowledge moves faster than product delivery. "Snake oil salesmen" did their thing because they could move from community to community and stay ahead of the news about a fraud coming through. I have no idea if this battery thingy is all it's cracked up to be, but the group won't last that long if they don't deliver.
        qbrass 13y ago
        Pre-ordering solves that problem. The product is delivered to everybody at once, before any knowledge can spread.
tlb 13y ago
It turns out that even the most amazing technologies don't just automatically get you huge checks overnight. You have to build a business, starting with a first product, and grow from there.
- thrownaway2424 13y ago
  Actually no, if this worked it would be a 30-minute meeting. <Gbatteries> Our patented technology extends the charge-cycle life of standard lithium-ion batteries by at least 200%, and we can prove it. <Panasonic> Great, we will license that. Here's a check for five billion dollars.
  - conkrete 13y ago
    Panasonic would NOT pay additional money in licensing to make less money by having their batteries last longer. Large companies like this make sure the batteries they use aren't interchangable or standardized. They certainly don't want to make batteries that you wouldn't want to replace. If you look at profit analysis of almost any product (like a panasonic camera), the profit margins are all in the accessories, like batteries.
    - masklinn 13y ago
      Go for Apple then, custom batteries, not user-replaceable, not retailed. They'll sign you a check for $10bn instead.
      - conkrete 13y ago
        Fair enough I could see Apple doing this. Although if batteries last as long as indicated here they would have to up the cost nearly twice as much per battery to keep profits steady.
        masklinn 13y ago
        Anecdotally, I see few people replacing their apple device (for an other one) because of battery life, and conversely stories of apple stores replacing batteries/devices because of battery life issues are regular. All in all, I don't think they'd care. Their biggest business these days is phone & tablet, and battery life (and the failure thereof) is not the primary upgrade driver.

larrys 13y ago

"In electric RC heli circles" I was around when in order to fly an electric heli you needed to attach a power cord to a wall socket. I'm serious. Back when I started it was gas only (I made it up to 60 size). I remember seeing a demo at a local hobby shop where outback someone had prototyped an electric which was hovering with a 110v power cord plugged in by extension cord.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]