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Or alternatively, you can simply ignore all this Euro-bashing (France is just the flavor of the month) under the heading "they do things differently, so they mu

Or alternatively, you can simply ignore all this Euro-bashing (France is just the flavor of the month) under the heading "they do things differently, so they must be wrong". Because we've been hearing this "the old continent with its big government and socialist laws is dying" crap for generations, and so far the only major fuck-ups have been in the ideologically driven attempts to be more like the US. Just a thought: maybe there are multiple roads that lead to success, and we should distinguish between real practical concerns and ideological prejudices. This goes both ways, because next up will be an article about how much better France (or any other Euro country) is in terms of working conditions for employees.

gadders 13y ago
I think the biggest fuck up would have been trying to force divergent economies to share the same currency.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  Not just about the currency, but the fact that you have/had a single interest rate that was basically calculated on the best performing country (Germany) while Italy and Greece and similar countries had rates at 17-19% prior to the Eurozone membership. Basically they indulged themselves in cheap credit as soon as they joined, and made their respective economies blow up in a bubble. Until they realized it was not sustainable.
  - gadders 13y ago
    Agreed, but same currency implies same interest rate.
    - fennecfoxen 13y ago
      Free trade implies same interest rate... at least the same real interest rate. The difference in rates between your USD credit card debt, EUR Greek bonds, GBP savings accounts, and anything else just boils down to overhead, inflation expectations, and risk. The actual time value of money part costs the same. It's the Law of One Price in action, and currency is pretty mobile and fungible. Heck, you'd see the same for BTC-based loans if the risk factor was low enough for sane people to consider offering them. (Of course, when you've got crazy government-imposed capital controls, like China or something, it's another story.)
  - fennecfoxen 13y ago
    Eh. In the long run, it hardly matters what currency you use and what rate of inflation you run. That's all a numbers game, and economic decisions are properly about real returns. And having the same currency as the rest of Europe has a variety of advantages to international trade. It does mean you can't pretend to make your problems go away by cranking up the deficits and inflation, though. You just have to admit that everyone's poorer than they thought the old-fashioned way, by having less money (instead of more money worth less). I guess that can be hard on your electoral chances, though :P
davidw 13y ago
If you're smart about it, you can learn things from other people who do things different ways. You can also learn what does not work very well.
Silhouette 13y ago
Because we've been hearing this "the old continent with its big government and socialist laws is dying" crap for generations, and so far the only major fuck-ups have been in the ideologically driven attempts to be more like the US. The Greeks just called and asked if you could give them a loan. I think you're right that there are multiple roads that lead to success, but not all roads do. The economic policies of quite a few European nations over the past decade or two have been unsustainable, and as we have now confirmed the hard way, that means sooner or later things break spectacularly. There's not much point comparing working conditions between Europe and the US when one of these places has widespread unemployment and there is literally rioting on the streets, as was the case not very long ago. As 'gadders observed, there have been other economic policy decisions in (parts of) Europe that had nothing to do with emulating the US, sounded positive, but turned out to be crazy too.
- marcusf 13y ago
  > There's not much point comparing working conditions between Europe and the US when one of these places has widespread unemployment and there is literally rioting on the streets, as was the case not very long ago. Which continent are you talking about now? Sounds like both?
  - Silhouette 13y ago
    The situations in the US vs. the European nations that have been in serious trouble recently are barely comparable. Even in the past year or so, with fears of further recession fading and growth returning to the PIIGS group, Greek unemployment is still running at over 27%, while the US is running at under 7%. Similarly, while the US and elsewhere saw significant protests as part of the Occupy movement, they were mostly peaceful in nature. The violence seen on the streets of Greece around 2010-2012 as severe austerity measures were taken was on a different scale entirely.
    - kiiski 13y ago
      But isn't that exactly a result of trying to be more "USA" (by having an economic union)? Besides, comparing US with a single European country is pretty pointless. One could easily turn the table around by choosing Norway instead of Greece.

gadders 13y ago

I think the biggest fuck up would have been trying to force divergent economies to share the same currency.

ekianjo 13y ago
Not just about the currency, but the fact that you have/had a single interest rate that was basically calculated on the best performing country (Germany) while Italy and Greece and similar countries had rates at 17-19% prior to the Eurozone membership. Basically they indulged themselves in cheap credit as soon as they joined, and made their respective economies blow up in a bubble. Until they realized it was not sustainable.
- gadders 13y ago
  Agreed, but same currency implies same interest rate.
  - fennecfoxen 13y ago
    Free trade implies same interest rate... at least the same real interest rate. The difference in rates between your USD credit card debt, EUR Greek bonds, GBP savings accounts, and anything else just boils down to overhead, inflation expectations, and risk. The actual time value of money part costs the same. It's the Law of One Price in action, and currency is pretty mobile and fungible. Heck, you'd see the same for BTC-based loans if the risk factor was low enough for sane people to consider offering them. (Of course, when you've got crazy government-imposed capital controls, like China or something, it's another story.)
- fennecfoxen 13y ago
  Eh. In the long run, it hardly matters what currency you use and what rate of inflation you run. That's all a numbers game, and economic decisions are properly about real returns. And having the same currency as the rest of Europe has a variety of advantages to international trade. It does mean you can't pretend to make your problems go away by cranking up the deficits and inflation, though. You just have to admit that everyone's poorer than they thought the old-fashioned way, by having less money (instead of more money worth less). I guess that can be hard on your electoral chances, though :P

davidw 13y ago

If you're smart about it, you can learn things from other people who do things different ways. You can also learn what does not work very well.

Silhouette 13y ago

Because we've been hearing this "the old continent with its big government and socialist laws is dying" crap for generations, and so far the only major fuck-ups have been in the ideologically driven attempts to be more like the US. The Greeks just called and asked if you could give them a loan. I think you're right that there are multiple roads that lead to success, but not all roads do. The economic policies of quite a few European nations over the past decade or two have been unsustainable, and as we have now confirmed the hard way, that means sooner or later things break spectacularly. There's not much point comparing working conditions between Europe and the US when one of these places has widespread unemployment and there is literally rioting on the streets, as was the case not very long ago. As 'gadders observed, there have been other economic policy decisions in (parts of) Europe that had nothing to do with emulating the US, sounded positive, but turned out to be crazy too.

marcusf 13y ago
> There's not much point comparing working conditions between Europe and the US when one of these places has widespread unemployment and there is literally rioting on the streets, as was the case not very long ago. Which continent are you talking about now? Sounds like both?
- Silhouette 13y ago
  The situations in the US vs. the European nations that have been in serious trouble recently are barely comparable. Even in the past year or so, with fears of further recession fading and growth returning to the PIIGS group, Greek unemployment is still running at over 27%, while the US is running at under 7%. Similarly, while the US and elsewhere saw significant protests as part of the Occupy movement, they were mostly peaceful in nature. The violence seen on the streets of Greece around 2010-2012 as severe austerity measures were taken was on a different scale entirely.
  - kiiski 13y ago
    But isn't that exactly a result of trying to be more "USA" (by having an economic union)? Besides, comparing US with a single European country is pretty pointless. One could easily turn the table around by choosing Norway instead of Greece.