10 ms·

Au Revoir, Entrepreneurs

60 points by 001sky 13y ago

asselinpaul 13y ago
I found this article interesting. Being french and living in London, I certainly witnessed the influx of french immigrants.
louthy 13y ago
Paywall.
- wikiburner 13y ago
  Incognito.
  - louthy 13y ago
    Thanks :)
digitalengineer 13y ago
> “Generally, if you are self-made man and earn money, you are looked at with suspicion,” > there’s a deep-rooted feeling that you don’t show that you make money > It’s more like, if someone has something I can’t have, I’d rather deprive this person from having it than trying to work hard to get it myself This. A lot of people still don't understand money can me made. They see succesfull men and woman and assume the money must have been stolen instead of made.
- hga 13y ago
  "They see succesfull men and woman and assume the money must have been stolen instead of made." Well, that's textbook Marxism, strong here in the US, I assume much stronger in France (after all the French Communist Party is still competitive to a fair degree, per Wikipedia was part of the "Plural Left" coalition that held the legislature from 1997–2002). ADDED: and our path is particularly odd there: as has been joked for some time, there is no French word for entrepreneur.
  - kungfooguru 13y ago
    Marxism is strong in the US? As a Marxist I can assure you that is not the case at all :P
    - digitalengineer 13y ago
      You should come to Brussels. Barroso used to run the communist party. (no joke).
  - camillomiller 13y ago
    That's not Marxism at all, just go read The Capital. It's seminal and extremely important. Communism has nothing to do with it. It's all about a mixture of catholic hypocrisy and envy. Trust me, I'm Italian, I know what I'm talking about.
  - jdangu 13y ago
    > ADDED: and our path is particularly odd there: as has been joked for some time, there is no French word for "entrepreneur". A goofy quote from G.W. Bush relaunched by Newsweek some months ago.
- existencebox 13y ago
  I don't mean to play devils advocate here, but let me apply two other possible interpretations: My statistical prior that someone with money did questionable things to obtain it has only been rising with time as I see increasing evidence of illicit business practices among the highest earners. (everything from insider trading to the more recent wage fixing). Secondly, is it reasonable to assume that one might find distaste for people with money who flaunt it? And that this might cause one to share that distaste for others with money, even if they don't flaunt to such a degree? I realize the latter half is a generalization that can cause problems, I'm just trying to state a rather "human" response. If it is constantly shoved in your face that certain people drive cars worth enough that it could bring your family out of debt for life, you may grow bitter at this. I believe money can be made, I just also believe there are a lot of "bad actors" in the system, for whom it is "stolen" to some degree, and it only seems to be becoming more common.
  - digitalengineer 13y ago
    You are correct. The part of stolen money would not be a problem if we had a functioning government that actually -you know- prosecuted people, like they did with the savings & loans crisis where more than 1,000 bankers were convicted by the Justice Department.
  - crusso 13y ago
    increasing evidence of illicit business practices among the highest earners Corruption is the core problem. I think that worry about corrupt businesses is misplaced when a corrupt government is 10x worse. everything from insider trading There's a good example right there. Congress can inside trade. It's absolutely extraordinarily corrupt. They wrote a law a while back to prevent it when there was some press on it, but then quietly scaled back the restriction. Consider this: Political office holders can lie to us outrageously and never face repercussions besides (perhaps) not being re-elected in a future cycle. You could list case after case of politicians who knowingly made definitive, verifiably false claims that have caused real damages to people. If they were officers of a public company, they would be sued into oblivion. They would be hounded by the Justice Department. But since they're in the political club, they've written the rules so that they can't be held accountable.
- analog31 13y ago
  In my view it's reasonable to interpret "self made" as meaning that a person made money within a society that provides an elaborate economic infrastructure. I don't know what it's like in France, but here in the states, we have things like a stable currency, public support of education and research, and limitation of liability for shareholders of corporations. And of course if inheritance is involved, then the "self" is a family and not an individual. What it's hard for people to understand is that both "stealing" and "making" are simplistic ideals, and that reality is much more complex for most of us.
  - digitalengineer 13y ago
    Let's not forget all those benefits were made possible by the people adding value and selling something (each in their own way, some products, others selling their craft of just their time). This adding of value was then taxed. (I'm not protesting to taxes, just showing all those benefits were made possible by the people and executed by the state).
    - analog31 13y ago
      Yes, definitely. Thanks.
crdoconnor 13y ago
This is pretty clearly a knee jerk reaction by the New York Times to Hollande's wealth tax: >He had taken that job after his attempt to start a business in Marseille foundered under a pile of government regulations and a seemingly endless parade of taxes. The episode left him wary of starting any new projects in France. Yet he still hungered to be his own boss. > >“A lot of people are like, ‘Why would you ever leave France?’ ” Mr. Santacruz said. “I’ll tell you. France has a lot of problems. There’s a feeling of gloom that seems to be growing deeper. The economy is not going well, and if you want to get ahead or run your own business, the environment is not good.” A feeling that something just isn't quite right about the place, and it's better in London? Gee I wonder if they mean this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161151/With-Hollande-set-tax-spend-Cameron-invites-wealthy-French-settle-London.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161151/With-Holland... >Some wealthy businesspeople have also been packing their bags. While entrepreneurs fret about the difficulties of getting a business off the ground, those who have succeeded in doing so say that society stigmatizes financial success. Yep. This article isn't about poor, plucky upstart rags-to-riches entrepreneurs at all. It's about manufacturing consent for slashing taxes on the ultrawealthy. The rich are pissed about Hollande's 75% tax and they want you to do something about it for them.
- argonaut 13y ago
  The 75% wealth tax point was only a minor point in an article that expressed many many other points and anecdotes, and whose greater argument was that the entrepreneurial climate in France was poor. The fact that your argument focuses on this minor point in order to dismiss the whole point is rather telling about what consent is being manufactured here...
  - nraynaud 13y ago
    There is quite some bullshit in this article, because the current government has not changed any law about creating a company (so we are exactly in the same state as before). Moreover it's merrily intermixing entrepreneurs problems with banking problems. And there is a little detail here: banking salaries are higher in London than in Paris and bankers are driven by money, so they emigrate massively in the pursuit of money. This has strictly no link to entrepreneurship, starting companies, or creating value from nothing, but hey, there is a complaint train, let's take it. And you can see the intermix quite a few times (got his wealth in finance, he worked in finance, the google references), Place de la Madeleine, is exactly who Fleur Pellerin is not trying to help, this are different people doing different things. And if for anything, bankers are part of the problems entrepreneurs have. So here is a nice little piece of context that was not in the article: here in France it's an election day today, and yesterday and today, political propaganda are forbidden in the country. The journalist is based in Paris, and has been for years, so she probably knew that nobody could answer to the article.
kybernetyk 13y ago
> Taxes, Frustration, More Taxes Uh, that's how I could describe my current situation in Germany. We were a little too successful last year and now the tax advance payments are endangering our liquidity. It feels as if this year I had spent more time reading about taxes and regulations than working on the business. Something is wrong when taxes become such a prominent part of your daily business life ...
- LambdaAlmighty 13y ago
  My friend, remember the Government Koan and persist. You have a long way ahead of you: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.
- mtrimpe 13y ago
  I'm not sure it's the same in Germany as in the Netherlands, but I'd recommend getting a good tax lawyer. Our tax company generally tends to lay down strong demands (which makes sense,) but becomes very lenient when it's clear they're more likely to recover the full amount by being patient.
- demoncore 13y ago
  Interesting to hear the German perspective. If you could share any more anonymous data e.g. tax rates, what you would have done in retrospect, etc I would very much appreciate it. No hard feelings if you can't.
- glasz 13y ago
  > Something is wrong when taxes become such a prominent part of your daily business life ... it's not just business life. i once watched a talk of a professor of law who said the ethical side of laws (tax law specifically) obligates them (even by a guideline, i thin) to be readable and digestable by every person to whom this law applies. he said, since this is clearly not the case in germany anymore our tax laws are thus rendered unjust and invalid. he obviously is right. now, good luck in front of the supreme court of our great democracy. of course, this discussion perfectly stretches into the area of tax evasion and if and/or why there's much incentive for doing so. also, isn't the state of tax laws only incriminating people by making tax evasion a crime due to the law being overly excessive on one side and undigestable on the other?
jotm 13y ago
Heh, you know how developing countries "solve" the bureaucracy problem? Through corruption! A few hundred [local_currency] here and there and you've got your business started in no time. If things don't improve soon, France (and other countries) will have to resort to the same thing - and it's a bad thing since it's hard to come back from that, when everyone gets their share independently and no one follows the rules anymore.
- dualogy 13y ago
  > Heh, you know how developing countries "solve" the bureaucracy problem? Through corruption! True and this "grease lubricating the economic engine" does "work" on a small scale. Problem in an environment where pervasive corruption trumps over "rule of law" for the small honest budding startup up-start -- there's always be someone bigger with better connections and deeper pockets willing to outbid you when it comes to securing local market dominance which will more than pay off their elbowing-you-out ;) Still, you have a point. A western-style rule-of-law environment is generally better for business and worth paying some amount of taxes -- within reason. But there comes a point where the tax and regulation codes do overwhelm small agile but resource-limited up-starts. (Of course there's still many success stories, but they have perhaps much to do with pressing forward relentlessly at the slight risk of perhaps missing one minor regulation or other tax facet and simply inadvertently gambling on the very tiny off-chance of doing so actually blowing them up.) Then if you do decide "taxes and regulations are really kind of too expensive but still just-about worth it for just and fair legal protection", you'll be well advised to keep telling yourself that fairytale where your taxes are directly funding a functioning well-balanced governance system, rather than being simply a metric used NOT even to pay interest on the governments past and present outsized debt excesses --which would be crazy enough, but nowadays your average western "non-corrupt" government will borrow even for interest payments-- BUT simply for said government to reach some kind of good agency rating as a "quality" borrower.
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    Yeah I don't think its taxes that suppress corruption in America. Its the tendency of ordinary people to blow the whistle on bribe-seekers. As such, its cultural, and making laws won't change that quickly.
conradfr 13y ago
> French entrepreneurs have been fleeing to other countries, especially England, which some 350,000 now call home. It's been estimated that between 70 000 and 300 000 French live in the U.K so I really doubt that 350 000 entrepreneurs live in England (granted the article also use the more wide "French nationals", but still).
pi-err 13y ago
I just left London for Paris based on: - cost/quality of life favorable to Paris by a large margin - France is 2nd biggest consumer market in Europe, giant opportunities still open there (like Germany) - a gifted talent scene, among which many are short on capital/language to work elsewhere in Europe - google campus is 2.5h away door to door - buzzing US community here - world hub for fashion and 3d Yes, there are more of this in London: - capital (London is a fiscal paradise) - big startups - middlemen (all things admin to outsource) - flexible offices (this is changing fast though) - English speakers This article (and main character) feels like a giant whine/rant. If you want a quick buck, London's great- though expect everyone to be working on a booking.com-like something or "Airbnb for x". As for the next 2 decades, I bet that Paris and Berlin will take off just as smoothly.
- nraynaud 13y ago
  Here is my advice: go somewhere else than Paris, one of the 15 biggest cities in France (look at the TGV, and tram, bike life, weather). Your quality of life will just skyrocket.
yodsanklai 13y ago
Classic NYT with a stereotypical and ideological article. Concerning expatriation, I think many people want to live abroad just to experience a different lifestyle. It's not always about taxes.
- gutnor 13y ago
  That's it. That is way cooler for a French to go in London than Paris. Especially, if it does not work out for him he will just come back with a solid resume that will get him a comfortable position easily. Like he decided to live in Kengsinton. Sure he share, like most singles in London, but he tries to live the life and was not too successful (yet, hopefully for him).
- Ma8ee 13y ago
  And the grass is always greener...
7Figures2Commas 13y ago
> "Sometimes I do ask myself if I'm making the right choice," he acknowledged. "But if you don't take risks, there will be no reward." This is true, but one of the most important things I learned in my 20s was knowing when to take risks. It takes money to make money, and if you're a starving founder waiting for an investor to cut you a check or trying to bootstrap your business with insufficient savings, you increase your risk of failure substantially. Patience is a virtue, as is focused and consistent saving, but in a lot of professions, like finance and technology, you won't have to work until you're 60 to build up meaningful savings that you can invest in yourself. If you've trapped yourself in the startup bubble, it's easy to convince yourself that your best opportunities are behind you by the time you hit 30, but the reality is that most businesses are not founded by 20-somethings. The Kauffman Foundation did a study called The Anatomy of an Entrepreneur a few years back and found the average entrepreneur was about 40 years old when he started his first company. Beyond being in a position to capitalize your own venture, one of the great advantages of starting a business in your 30s, 40s or later is that you're far more likely to have the domain expertise so many young founders lack. There are literally countless untapped, unsexy million-dollar opportunities that 20-somethings running around Silicon Valley will never pursue because they don't even know that certain industries and problems exist.
djur 13y ago
I don't see any actual evidence cited that entrepreneurs or "creatives" in particular are fleeing France. They might make up a larger percentage of the diaspora, but that's generally true of expatriates from any country. France has about the same percentage of citizens living abroad as the US, and about a quarter as many as the UK: France: total population ~63m, living abroad ~2m, about 2.5% US: total population ~317m, living abroad ~6m, about 1.9% UK: total population ~63m, living abroad ~6-12m, about 9.5% or more
coulix 13y ago
Being from the France tech scene and now living in SF ther are several things we should not forget. CONS - Yes you get big taxes, and setting up a company is a pain (RSI/URSSAF), administration is slow and inefficient. Finding fundings can be hard and investements are generaly smaller than in the US. French market is smal unless your target is international from day 1. But, PROS - You have a pool of not so pricy talented workers (Well supposing you benefit from “Credit impot recherche” otherwise the total cost of an employee is x2 his salary). - Fight for some government subsidies (time consuming). - Leverage the government to pay your salary while bootstrapping. For startupers with previous work experience, you can quit your company in good terms and receive unemployement paychecks for a year or so.
- LambdaAlmighty 13y ago
  These sound like all CONS to me. Except the last one, which is just plain disgusting.
ThomPete 13y ago
Ahh European entrepreneurship. The US has it's issues, but Europe is simply decades behind. The irony of all this is that the EU has very successfully created an internal market allowing for easier trade between countries in the EU, but it's ability to foster new comanies is still hindered by it's old industry understanding of a new industry. "Les misérables Europe not only has a euro crisis, it also has a growth crisis. That is because of its chronic failure to encourage ambitious entrepreneurs..." http://www.economist.com/node/21559618 http://www.economist.com/node/21559618
analog31 13y ago
It would be interesting to know how _personal_ taxes work in European countries. I remember conversing with somebody, maybe from England, who told me that the typical worker doesn't file any paperwork for their annual taxes, unless they're doing something unusual. If that's the case, then filing business taxes for the first time would come as somewhat of a shock. In contrast, my personal tax return here in the US is about 10x more complex than my business tax paperwork (Schedule C plus a state sales tax return).

60 points by 001sky 13y ago

I found this article interesting. Being french and living in London, I certainly witnessed the influx of french immigrants.

louthy 13y ago

Paywall.

wikiburner 13y ago
Incognito.
- louthy 13y ago
  Thanks :)

digitalengineer 13y ago

> “Generally, if you are self-made man and earn money, you are looked at with suspicion,” > there’s a deep-rooted feeling that you don’t show that you make money > It’s more like, if someone has something I can’t have, I’d rather deprive this person from having it than trying to work hard to get it myself This. A lot of people still don't understand money can me made. They see succesfull men and woman and assume the money must have been stolen instead of made.

hga 13y ago
"They see succesfull men and woman and assume the money must have been stolen instead of made." Well, that's textbook Marxism, strong here in the US, I assume much stronger in France (after all the French Communist Party is still competitive to a fair degree, per Wikipedia was part of the "Plural Left" coalition that held the legislature from 1997–2002). ADDED: and our path is particularly odd there: as has been joked for some time, there is no French word for entrepreneur.
- kungfooguru 13y ago
  Marxism is strong in the US? As a Marxist I can assure you that is not the case at all :P
  - digitalengineer 13y ago
    You should come to Brussels. Barroso used to run the communist party. (no joke).
- camillomiller 13y ago
  That's not Marxism at all, just go read The Capital. It's seminal and extremely important. Communism has nothing to do with it. It's all about a mixture of catholic hypocrisy and envy. Trust me, I'm Italian, I know what I'm talking about.
- jdangu 13y ago
  > ADDED: and our path is particularly odd there: as has been joked for some time, there is no French word for "entrepreneur". A goofy quote from G.W. Bush relaunched by Newsweek some months ago.
existencebox 13y ago
I don't mean to play devils advocate here, but let me apply two other possible interpretations: My statistical prior that someone with money did questionable things to obtain it has only been rising with time as I see increasing evidence of illicit business practices among the highest earners. (everything from insider trading to the more recent wage fixing). Secondly, is it reasonable to assume that one might find distaste for people with money who flaunt it? And that this might cause one to share that distaste for others with money, even if they don't flaunt to such a degree? I realize the latter half is a generalization that can cause problems, I'm just trying to state a rather "human" response. If it is constantly shoved in your face that certain people drive cars worth enough that it could bring your family out of debt for life, you may grow bitter at this. I believe money can be made, I just also believe there are a lot of "bad actors" in the system, for whom it is "stolen" to some degree, and it only seems to be becoming more common.
- digitalengineer 13y ago
  You are correct. The part of stolen money would not be a problem if we had a functioning government that actually -you know- prosecuted people, like they did with the savings & loans crisis where more than 1,000 bankers were convicted by the Justice Department.
- crusso 13y ago
  increasing evidence of illicit business practices among the highest earners Corruption is the core problem. I think that worry about corrupt businesses is misplaced when a corrupt government is 10x worse. everything from insider trading There's a good example right there. Congress can inside trade. It's absolutely extraordinarily corrupt. They wrote a law a while back to prevent it when there was some press on it, but then quietly scaled back the restriction. Consider this: Political office holders can lie to us outrageously and never face repercussions besides (perhaps) not being re-elected in a future cycle. You could list case after case of politicians who knowingly made definitive, verifiably false claims that have caused real damages to people. If they were officers of a public company, they would be sued into oblivion. They would be hounded by the Justice Department. But since they're in the political club, they've written the rules so that they can't be held accountable.
analog31 13y ago
In my view it's reasonable to interpret "self made" as meaning that a person made money within a society that provides an elaborate economic infrastructure. I don't know what it's like in France, but here in the states, we have things like a stable currency, public support of education and research, and limitation of liability for shareholders of corporations. And of course if inheritance is involved, then the "self" is a family and not an individual. What it's hard for people to understand is that both "stealing" and "making" are simplistic ideals, and that reality is much more complex for most of us.
- digitalengineer 13y ago
  Let's not forget all those benefits were made possible by the people adding value and selling something (each in their own way, some products, others selling their craft of just their time). This adding of value was then taxed. (I'm not protesting to taxes, just showing all those benefits were made possible by the people and executed by the state).
  - analog31 13y ago
    Yes, definitely. Thanks.

crdoconnor 13y ago

This is pretty clearly a knee jerk reaction by the New York Times to Hollande's wealth tax: >He had taken that job after his attempt to start a business in Marseille foundered under a pile of government regulations and a seemingly endless parade of taxes. The episode left him wary of starting any new projects in France. Yet he still hungered to be his own boss. > >“A lot of people are like, ‘Why would you ever leave France?’ ” Mr. Santacruz said. “I’ll tell you. France has a lot of problems. There’s a feeling of gloom that seems to be growing deeper. The economy is not going well, and if you want to get ahead or run your own business, the environment is not good.” A feeling that something just isn't quite right about the place, and it's better in London? Gee I wonder if they mean this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161151/With-Hollande-set-tax-spend-Cameron-invites-wealthy-French-settle-London.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161151/With-Holland... >Some wealthy businesspeople have also been packing their bags. While entrepreneurs fret about the difficulties of getting a business off the ground, those who have succeeded in doing so say that society stigmatizes financial success. Yep. This article isn't about poor, plucky upstart rags-to-riches entrepreneurs at all. It's about manufacturing consent for slashing taxes on the ultrawealthy. The rich are pissed about Hollande's 75% tax and they want you to do something about it for them.

argonaut 13y ago
The 75% wealth tax point was only a minor point in an article that expressed many many other points and anecdotes, and whose greater argument was that the entrepreneurial climate in France was poor. The fact that your argument focuses on this minor point in order to dismiss the whole point is rather telling about what consent is being manufactured here...
- nraynaud 13y ago
  There is quite some bullshit in this article, because the current government has not changed any law about creating a company (so we are exactly in the same state as before). Moreover it's merrily intermixing entrepreneurs problems with banking problems. And there is a little detail here: banking salaries are higher in London than in Paris and bankers are driven by money, so they emigrate massively in the pursuit of money. This has strictly no link to entrepreneurship, starting companies, or creating value from nothing, but hey, there is a complaint train, let's take it. And you can see the intermix quite a few times (got his wealth in finance, he worked in finance, the google references), Place de la Madeleine, is exactly who Fleur Pellerin is not trying to help, this are different people doing different things. And if for anything, bankers are part of the problems entrepreneurs have. So here is a nice little piece of context that was not in the article: here in France it's an election day today, and yesterday and today, political propaganda are forbidden in the country. The journalist is based in Paris, and has been for years, so she probably knew that nobody could answer to the article.

kybernetyk 13y ago

> Taxes, Frustration, More Taxes Uh, that's how I could describe my current situation in Germany. We were a little too successful last year and now the tax advance payments are endangering our liquidity. It feels as if this year I had spent more time reading about taxes and regulations than working on the business. Something is wrong when taxes become such a prominent part of your daily business life ...

LambdaAlmighty 13y ago
My friend, remember the Government Koan and persist. You have a long way ahead of you: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.
mtrimpe 13y ago
I'm not sure it's the same in Germany as in the Netherlands, but I'd recommend getting a good tax lawyer. Our tax company generally tends to lay down strong demands (which makes sense,) but becomes very lenient when it's clear they're more likely to recover the full amount by being patient.
demoncore 13y ago
Interesting to hear the German perspective. If you could share any more anonymous data e.g. tax rates, what you would have done in retrospect, etc I would very much appreciate it. No hard feelings if you can't.
glasz 13y ago
> Something is wrong when taxes become such a prominent part of your daily business life ... it's not just business life. i once watched a talk of a professor of law who said the ethical side of laws (tax law specifically) obligates them (even by a guideline, i thin) to be readable and digestable by every person to whom this law applies. he said, since this is clearly not the case in germany anymore our tax laws are thus rendered unjust and invalid. he obviously is right. now, good luck in front of the supreme court of our great democracy. of course, this discussion perfectly stretches into the area of tax evasion and if and/or why there's much incentive for doing so. also, isn't the state of tax laws only incriminating people by making tax evasion a crime due to the law being overly excessive on one side and undigestable on the other?

jotm 13y ago

Heh, you know how developing countries "solve" the bureaucracy problem? Through corruption! A few hundred [local_currency] here and there and you've got your business started in no time. If things don't improve soon, France (and other countries) will have to resort to the same thing - and it's a bad thing since it's hard to come back from that, when everyone gets their share independently and no one follows the rules anymore.

dualogy 13y ago
> Heh, you know how developing countries "solve" the bureaucracy problem? Through corruption! True and this "grease lubricating the economic engine" does "work" on a small scale. Problem in an environment where pervasive corruption trumps over "rule of law" for the small honest budding startup up-start -- there's always be someone bigger with better connections and deeper pockets willing to outbid you when it comes to securing local market dominance which will more than pay off their elbowing-you-out ;) Still, you have a point. A western-style rule-of-law environment is generally better for business and worth paying some amount of taxes -- within reason. But there comes a point where the tax and regulation codes do overwhelm small agile but resource-limited up-starts. (Of course there's still many success stories, but they have perhaps much to do with pressing forward relentlessly at the slight risk of perhaps missing one minor regulation or other tax facet and simply inadvertently gambling on the very tiny off-chance of doing so actually blowing them up.) Then if you do decide "taxes and regulations are really kind of too expensive but still just-about worth it for just and fair legal protection", you'll be well advised to keep telling yourself that fairytale where your taxes are directly funding a functioning well-balanced governance system, rather than being simply a metric used NOT even to pay interest on the governments past and present outsized debt excesses --which would be crazy enough, but nowadays your average western "non-corrupt" government will borrow even for interest payments-- BUT simply for said government to reach some kind of good agency rating as a "quality" borrower.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  Yeah I don't think its taxes that suppress corruption in America. Its the tendency of ordinary people to blow the whistle on bribe-seekers. As such, its cultural, and making laws won't change that quickly.

conradfr 13y ago

> French entrepreneurs have been fleeing to other countries, especially England, which some 350,000 now call home. It's been estimated that between 70 000 and 300 000 French live in the U.K so I really doubt that 350 000 entrepreneurs live in England (granted the article also use the more wide "French nationals", but still).

pi-err 13y ago

I just left London for Paris based on: - cost/quality of life favorable to Paris by a large margin - France is 2nd biggest consumer market in Europe, giant opportunities still open there (like Germany) - a gifted talent scene, among which many are short on capital/language to work elsewhere in Europe - google campus is 2.5h away door to door - buzzing US community here - world hub for fashion and 3d Yes, there are more of this in London: - capital (London is a fiscal paradise) - big startups - middlemen (all things admin to outsource) - flexible offices (this is changing fast though) - English speakers This article (and main character) feels like a giant whine/rant. If you want a quick buck, London's great- though expect everyone to be working on a booking.com-like something or "Airbnb for x". As for the next 2 decades, I bet that Paris and Berlin will take off just as smoothly.

nraynaud 13y ago
Here is my advice: go somewhere else than Paris, one of the 15 biggest cities in France (look at the TGV, and tram, bike life, weather). Your quality of life will just skyrocket.

yodsanklai 13y ago

Classic NYT with a stereotypical and ideological article. Concerning expatriation, I think many people want to live abroad just to experience a different lifestyle. It's not always about taxes.

gutnor 13y ago
That's it. That is way cooler for a French to go in London than Paris. Especially, if it does not work out for him he will just come back with a solid resume that will get him a comfortable position easily. Like he decided to live in Kengsinton. Sure he share, like most singles in London, but he tries to live the life and was not too successful (yet, hopefully for him).
Ma8ee 13y ago
And the grass is always greener...

7Figures2Commas 13y ago

> "Sometimes I do ask myself if I'm making the right choice," he acknowledged. "But if you don't take risks, there will be no reward." This is true, but one of the most important things I learned in my 20s was knowing when to take risks. It takes money to make money, and if you're a starving founder waiting for an investor to cut you a check or trying to bootstrap your business with insufficient savings, you increase your risk of failure substantially. Patience is a virtue, as is focused and consistent saving, but in a lot of professions, like finance and technology, you won't have to work until you're 60 to build up meaningful savings that you can invest in yourself. If you've trapped yourself in the startup bubble, it's easy to convince yourself that your best opportunities are behind you by the time you hit 30, but the reality is that most businesses are not founded by 20-somethings. The Kauffman Foundation did a study called The Anatomy of an Entrepreneur a few years back and found the average entrepreneur was about 40 years old when he started his first company. Beyond being in a position to capitalize your own venture, one of the great advantages of starting a business in your 30s, 40s or later is that you're far more likely to have the domain expertise so many young founders lack. There are literally countless untapped, unsexy million-dollar opportunities that 20-somethings running around Silicon Valley will never pursue because they don't even know that certain industries and problems exist.

djur 13y ago

I don't see any actual evidence cited that entrepreneurs or "creatives" in particular are fleeing France. They might make up a larger percentage of the diaspora, but that's generally true of expatriates from any country. France has about the same percentage of citizens living abroad as the US, and about a quarter as many as the UK: France: total population ~63m, living abroad ~2m, about 2.5% US: total population ~317m, living abroad ~6m, about 1.9% UK: total population ~63m, living abroad ~6-12m, about 9.5% or more

coulix 13y ago

Being from the France tech scene and now living in SF ther are several things we should not forget. CONS - Yes you get big taxes, and setting up a company is a pain (RSI/URSSAF), administration is slow and inefficient. Finding fundings can be hard and investements are generaly smaller than in the US. French market is smal unless your target is international from day 1. But, PROS - You have a pool of not so pricy talented workers (Well supposing you benefit from “Credit impot recherche” otherwise the total cost of an employee is x2 his salary). - Fight for some government subsidies (time consuming). - Leverage the government to pay your salary while bootstrapping. For startupers with previous work experience, you can quit your company in good terms and receive unemployement paychecks for a year or so.

LambdaAlmighty 13y ago
These sound like all CONS to me. Except the last one, which is just plain disgusting.

ThomPete 13y ago

Ahh European entrepreneurship. The US has it's issues, but Europe is simply decades behind. The irony of all this is that the EU has very successfully created an internal market allowing for easier trade between countries in the EU, but it's ability to foster new comanies is still hindered by it's old industry understanding of a new industry. "Les misérables Europe not only has a euro crisis, it also has a growth crisis. That is because of its chronic failure to encourage ambitious entrepreneurs..." http://www.economist.com/node/21559618 http://www.economist.com/node/21559618

analog31 13y ago

It would be interesting to know how _personal_ taxes work in European countries. I remember conversing with somebody, maybe from England, who told me that the typical worker doesn't file any paperwork for their annual taxes, unless they're doing something unusual. If that's the case, then filing business taxes for the first time would come as somewhat of a shock. In contrast, my personal tax return here in the US is about 10x more complex than my business tax paperwork (Schedule C plus a state sales tax return).