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> A bunch of people here are saying that Jobs was being an asshole. Well ... he was. > I don't know much about the man, but what he's doing here is intelligen

by lutusp 13y ago

> A bunch of people here are saying that Jobs was being an asshole. Well ... he was. > I don't know much about the man, but what he's doing here is intelligent negotiation, plain and simple. Jobs had the destructive habit of tearing people down for no reason, preventing them from liking either themselves or him. I knew him personally and I saw this behavior any number of times, behavior that had no possible positive outcome. In this case, Jobs could simply have said, "This is completely unacceptable, but I'm sure you'll find a way to meet my legitimate requirements. I'm available next Thursday if you think we can come to an agreement." You know -- like a normal person. In the Isaacson book, Jobs is accurately described as a clinical narcissist, and I can confirm than from personal experience. To those who think Jobs accomplished what he did because of his behavior, I say he accomplished what he did in spite of his behavior. Obviously we will never know, this cannot be science, but Jobs went through life burning everyone down, filtering out everyone who wasn't a born narcissistic enabler.

deleted 13y ago
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jckt 13y ago
> filtering out everyone who wasn't a born narcissistic enabler. Do you mean that there instances where he really listened or liked/respected/etc someone because they had similar narcissistic tendencies? I was under the impression that people like him tend to hate people like themselves -- a narcissist who thinks he's the best is at greatest odds with another narcissist who thinks he's the best.
- vacri 13y ago
  lutusp means the archetypal 'yes-man', the person who openly admires anything you do and only ever agrees with you, reinforcing your self-esteem, 'enabling' your 'narcissism'.
  - jckt 13y ago
    Ah, okay, I get it now. I completely misunderstood lutusp's sentence.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > Do you mean that there instances where he really listened or liked/respected/etc someone because they had similar narcissistic tendencies? Narcissists and enablers aren't the same personality type, even though one can become the other over time. More here: http://arachnoid.com/ChildrenOfNarcissus http://arachnoid.com/ChildrenOfNarcissus
- ngpio 13y ago
  > a narcissist who thinks he's the best is at greatest odds to another narcissist who thinks he's the best. Only if both have very literal, wide-reaching interpretations of 'the best'. Arrogance and narcissism are often contextual, and I've met many self-absorbed, but ultimately capable people who value a similar imbalance in others. Who am I kidding, I'm talking about myself.
larrys 13y ago
"Jobs had the destructive habit of tearing people down for no reason, preventing them from liking either themselves or him. I knew him personally and I saw this behavior any number of times, behavior that had no possible positive outcome." Well it did have a positive outcome for Steve and the users of his products though. It obviously didn't have a positive outcome for any of the recipients. "In this case, Jobs could simply have said, "This is completely unacceptable, but I'm sure you'll find a way to meet my legitimate requirements. I'm available next Thursday if you think we can come to an agreement." You know -- like a normal person." Are you saying "normal person" or "normal businessperson"? Forgetting for a second whether it even matters different people have different styles. What works for one person may not work for someone else. Business is a game. This is the way Steve played the game. I've been in business for a long long time. Specifically involved in many negotiations. I've see many of these games. And I would have smelled it a mile away. And acted accordingly to my advantage. Not only that but there is opportunity with "assholes" like Steve. Because he turns people off the ones that can take the punishment (and deliver) stand to gain greatly. In the game of business that is. Which is what it is.
barrkel 13y ago
It's interesting - I see a lot of narcissistic traits in the few iPhone holdouts in my life.
- woah 13y ago
  Yawn. (I don't have an iPhone by the way)
- forgottenpass 13y ago
  You can see the narcissism in almost anyone living a 1st world Americanized lifestyle. What's really interesting is that you chose to single out the iPhone holdout camp in a discussion about whether or not Jobs was a narcissist. Those two groups are so disparate it's borders on entirely irrelevant to the conversation. Nevermind, I lied for affect. It's not actually interesting either. You're so invested in your phone as a status symbol that you perceive an unflattering analysis of it's creator as an attack and lash out against people that don't value your status symbol. As I said, it's easy to find narcissism.
  - barrkel 13y ago
    It's interesting that this has been the most negatively rated comment I think I've ever made. It clearly struck a nerve :) I'm not invested in my phone as a status symbol at all. I'm not sure where you got that from. I'm actually quite uninterested in status symbols, since I don't socialize much outside a fixed group of people, and least of all my phone, which currently has a bunch of cracks at the bottom of the screen from an early drop. I don't have much opportunity to use it for signalling. I'd say I use vocabulary and phrasing for general social signalling, and otherwise I prefer unbranded products. The fact that the Nexus line doesn't have any brand names on the front of the devices appeals to me, but not because it means they're Nexus devices, but rather that I am less of a walking billboard. The connection I saw was that Apple seems to make products that have particular affinity for narcissists - they make products that, for the people who choose them, think they are choosing something excellent, something that makes them feel good about themselves. More than that, they think it represents a kind of excellence that makes them superior in taste and lifestyle to own. I wouldn't be surprised if many Apple products were specifically designed to appeal to narcissists. It would explain a lot of common personality traits in their owners. PS: I don't know what an Americanized lifestyle is either. There's not a lot in common between the lifestyle I had when I worked in Scotts Valley and the lifestyle I have here in London.

by lutusp 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

jckt 13y ago

> filtering out everyone who wasn't a born narcissistic enabler. Do you mean that there instances where he really listened or liked/respected/etc someone because they had similar narcissistic tendencies? I was under the impression that people like him tend to hate people like themselves -- a narcissist who thinks he's the best is at greatest odds with another narcissist who thinks he's the best.

vacri 13y ago
lutusp means the archetypal 'yes-man', the person who openly admires anything you do and only ever agrees with you, reinforcing your self-esteem, 'enabling' your 'narcissism'.
- jckt 13y ago
  Ah, okay, I get it now. I completely misunderstood lutusp's sentence.
lutusp 13y ago
> Do you mean that there instances where he really listened or liked/respected/etc someone because they had similar narcissistic tendencies? Narcissists and enablers aren't the same personality type, even though one can become the other over time. More here: http://arachnoid.com/ChildrenOfNarcissus http://arachnoid.com/ChildrenOfNarcissus
ngpio 13y ago
> a narcissist who thinks he's the best is at greatest odds to another narcissist who thinks he's the best. Only if both have very literal, wide-reaching interpretations of 'the best'. Arrogance and narcissism are often contextual, and I've met many self-absorbed, but ultimately capable people who value a similar imbalance in others. Who am I kidding, I'm talking about myself.

larrys 13y ago

"Jobs had the destructive habit of tearing people down for no reason, preventing them from liking either themselves or him. I knew him personally and I saw this behavior any number of times, behavior that had no possible positive outcome." Well it did have a positive outcome for Steve and the users of his products though. It obviously didn't have a positive outcome for any of the recipients. "In this case, Jobs could simply have said, "This is completely unacceptable, but I'm sure you'll find a way to meet my legitimate requirements. I'm available next Thursday if you think we can come to an agreement." You know -- like a normal person." Are you saying "normal person" or "normal businessperson"? Forgetting for a second whether it even matters different people have different styles. What works for one person may not work for someone else. Business is a game. This is the way Steve played the game. I've been in business for a long long time. Specifically involved in many negotiations. I've see many of these games. And I would have smelled it a mile away. And acted accordingly to my advantage. Not only that but there is opportunity with "assholes" like Steve. Because he turns people off the ones that can take the punishment (and deliver) stand to gain greatly. In the game of business that is. Which is what it is.

barrkel 13y ago

It's interesting - I see a lot of narcissistic traits in the few iPhone holdouts in my life.

woah 13y ago
Yawn. (I don't have an iPhone by the way)
forgottenpass 13y ago
You can see the narcissism in almost anyone living a 1st world Americanized lifestyle. What's really interesting is that you chose to single out the iPhone holdout camp in a discussion about whether or not Jobs was a narcissist. Those two groups are so disparate it's borders on entirely irrelevant to the conversation. Nevermind, I lied for affect. It's not actually interesting either. You're so invested in your phone as a status symbol that you perceive an unflattering analysis of it's creator as an attack and lash out against people that don't value your status symbol. As I said, it's easy to find narcissism.
- barrkel 13y ago
  It's interesting that this has been the most negatively rated comment I think I've ever made. It clearly struck a nerve :) I'm not invested in my phone as a status symbol at all. I'm not sure where you got that from. I'm actually quite uninterested in status symbols, since I don't socialize much outside a fixed group of people, and least of all my phone, which currently has a bunch of cracks at the bottom of the screen from an early drop. I don't have much opportunity to use it for signalling. I'd say I use vocabulary and phrasing for general social signalling, and otherwise I prefer unbranded products. The fact that the Nexus line doesn't have any brand names on the front of the devices appeals to me, but not because it means they're Nexus devices, but rather that I am less of a walking billboard. The connection I saw was that Apple seems to make products that have particular affinity for narcissists - they make products that, for the people who choose them, think they are choosing something excellent, something that makes them feel good about themselves. More than that, they think it represents a kind of excellence that makes them superior in taste and lifestyle to own. I wouldn't be surprised if many Apple products were specifically designed to appeal to narcissists. It would explain a lot of common personality traits in their owners. PS: I don't know what an Americanized lifestyle is either. There's not a lot in common between the lifestyle I had when I worked in Scotts Valley and the lifestyle I have here in London.