6 ms·

"it just so happens that the best people are overwhelmingly white and male" Yes, and? For example, best programmers are overwhelmingly white and male, because

by nawitus 13y ago

"it just so happens that the best people are overwhelmingly white and male" Yes, and? For example, best programmers are overwhelmingly white and male, because majority of programmers are white and male. (Not sure about race, but it's probably true in Western countries). The majority of people interested in founding technology startups are probably white and male, and therefore the best people for starting a technology startup are white and male. You comment implies that it's wrong to state that the best people are overwhelmingly white and male, if you don't imply that, please make it clear. If women are as skilled as men in, say, programming, then majority of best programmers are male. >2. The VC ecosystem has some pretty systemic biases and prejudices (this is not to say that startup people or programmers or anyone is particularly evil; in fact, almost everything has systemic biases and prejudices), and as a result the current landscape does not reflect the best possible set of founders, startups, and opportunities. There's a third possibility: women and non-whites in Western countries are less interested in applying for venture capital. If that is the case, then in an equal world venture capitalists should invest less in startups founded by non-white women, because the majority of startups seeking venture capital are founded by white males. The overall point is that you need to fix the root cause, not the effects of the cause. As long as women and non-whites are minorities in groups of people such as tech students, you should see less women and non-whites in tech student related phenomenon, such as technology startups. This reminds me of all these communities like "AngularJS women", who try to get more women into AngularJS. I think that's pointless. Once 50% of software engineers are women, and once women have exactly the same interests and values and beliefs as men, you'll find that 50% of AngularJS developers will be female.

Crito 13y ago
> "Yes, and? For example, best programmers are overwhelmingly white and male, because majority of programmers are white and male." Understanding of this point is perhaps facilitated by also mentioning that the worst programmers are also overwhelmingly white and male, for the same reason.
- general_failure 13y ago
  You haven't seen bad programmers have you? Trust me they are not white :)
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    None of them are white? I have plenty of anecdata to the contrary!
- lmm 13y ago
  Are they, though? I wish I could just agree, but inconveniently the three or four strikingly terrible programmers I've encountered don't conform to this. (And the worst of them, who I only knew as a name on an @author tag, I had assumed to be male (and felt a kind of relief about it - "I'm not being sexist, worst of all is x and he's a guy"), so this isn't a case of prejudices clouding the assessment).
  - Crito 13y ago
    My comment is more of a statement about what you should expect if competency is evenly distributed in both populations, but one population is larger than another. More competent people and more incompetent people would be expected from the larger population, if competency is evenly distributed.
pron 13y ago
> The overall point is that you need to fix the root cause, not the effects of the cause. Part of the reason why women are less likely to become programmers and strartup founders is because of the lack of role models. Successful role models serve both to change ingrained cultural biases, as well as to inspire and encourage underrepresented groups to consider participation in new fields. There is no clear cause and effect, but rather a feedback loop (what we see affects our biases which then become even more entrenched). This is exactly the reasoning behind affirmative action, and why any fight against cultural biases should be at all levels.
- loladesoto 13y ago
  as a 3rd-generation minority female entrepreneur, i can attest to this. however, even with those powerful role models, i had (and have) to fight a fairly gruesome battle. fortunately, i am a warrior and don't really know any other way. otherwise, i'd have given up long ago.
LordHumungous 13y ago
>Yes, and? Yes, and it's not a good thing for the entire industry to be dominated by a certain group, because then the industry will end up only serving the needs of that group.
- Ellipsis753 13y ago
  There's a huge gap in the market if no programs are coded for non-English non-males. You're argument is quite a silly one to me as clearly it's not that big of an issue, people can normally make things for a different target market to themselves by testing it with their target market. If you truly believe that large sections of the the market are not being served then I'd recommend that you start targeting them, they are clearly under-tapped.
tbrake 13y ago
> Once 50% of software engineers are women, and once women have exactly the same interests and values and beliefs as men, I'm struggling to interpret that sentence in a charitable manner. Could you clarify what you meant? Are you saying that, when it comes to development, male values/interests (whatever that could possibly mean anyway) are the only ones worth having and that women need to conform to them?
- Ellipsis753 13y ago
  No. He's just making fun of the idea that men and women should be identical and should be 50/50 on everything. In actuality women and men do different things and have different interests. It's kind of crazy to pass up a better person just to get more women/men hired or to do something. If you have to hire 10 people for a coding position and you have 100 applicants (10 male and 90 female) but the 10 male applicants are better (more qualified and better for the job) than the 90 female applicants then you should hire the 10 male applicant. There is no reason you should try to force it to 5 males and 5 females or even 9 females and 1 male. Just hire whoever is best regardless of gender.
  - theorique 13y ago
    Unfortunately, this kind of attitude (with which I wholly agree) is being criticized more and more. Through contempt for the concept of meritocracy (even as an asymptotic ideal), and growth in identity politics, more and more people seem to view diversity and social engineering goals as more important than getting the best team in place for the job. Maybe that's fine for a sclerotic bureaucracy, but for a startup in which everyone's effort counts, a single marginal hire is like a cancer - you simply can't afford it. Hiring needs to be focused on getting the best people for the job - diversity will arise as a consequence.
    - abhorrence 13y ago
      It's worth considering bias though. Do the people in charge of hiring fairly assess the skills of an applicant? I suspect that orchestras in the 1970's would have claimed to be meritocratic in their audition practices, but the success rate of female auditionees quintupled with the introduction of blind auditions. [1] In the case where you've hired 10 males out of a pool of 90 females and 10 males, it's not unreasonable to suspect that maybe something is wrong with your hiring practices, is it? It definitely could be that everything truly was based on merit, however there could be biases in the hiring process of which you're not aware. Could this be what most of the people that you see as having "contempt for the concept of meritocracy" are actually thinking? That said, there are good and bad ways of dealing with these sorts of issues. I generally dislike affirmative action like solutions, much for the same reason that Justice Clarence Thomas dislikes affirmative action. Solutions like blind auditions, that attempt to remove the biases, rather than negate them, are far better. [1] - http://www.nber.org/papers/w5903 http://www.nber.org/papers/w5903

by nawitus 13y ago

Crito 13y ago

> "Yes, and? For example, best programmers are overwhelmingly white and male, because majority of programmers are white and male." Understanding of this point is perhaps facilitated by also mentioning that the worst programmers are also overwhelmingly white and male, for the same reason.

general_failure 13y ago
You haven't seen bad programmers have you? Trust me they are not white :)
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  None of them are white? I have plenty of anecdata to the contrary!
lmm 13y ago
Are they, though? I wish I could just agree, but inconveniently the three or four strikingly terrible programmers I've encountered don't conform to this. (And the worst of them, who I only knew as a name on an @author tag, I had assumed to be male (and felt a kind of relief about it - "I'm not being sexist, worst of all is x and he's a guy"), so this isn't a case of prejudices clouding the assessment).
- Crito 13y ago
  My comment is more of a statement about what you should expect if competency is evenly distributed in both populations, but one population is larger than another. More competent people and more incompetent people would be expected from the larger population, if competency is evenly distributed.

pron 13y ago

> The overall point is that you need to fix the root cause, not the effects of the cause. Part of the reason why women are less likely to become programmers and strartup founders is because of the lack of role models. Successful role models serve both to change ingrained cultural biases, as well as to inspire and encourage underrepresented groups to consider participation in new fields. There is no clear cause and effect, but rather a feedback loop (what we see affects our biases which then become even more entrenched). This is exactly the reasoning behind affirmative action, and why any fight against cultural biases should be at all levels.

loladesoto 13y ago
as a 3rd-generation minority female entrepreneur, i can attest to this. however, even with those powerful role models, i had (and have) to fight a fairly gruesome battle. fortunately, i am a warrior and don't really know any other way. otherwise, i'd have given up long ago.

LordHumungous 13y ago

>Yes, and? Yes, and it's not a good thing for the entire industry to be dominated by a certain group, because then the industry will end up only serving the needs of that group.

Ellipsis753 13y ago
There's a huge gap in the market if no programs are coded for non-English non-males. You're argument is quite a silly one to me as clearly it's not that big of an issue, people can normally make things for a different target market to themselves by testing it with their target market. If you truly believe that large sections of the the market are not being served then I'd recommend that you start targeting them, they are clearly under-tapped.

tbrake 13y ago

> Once 50% of software engineers are women, and once women have exactly the same interests and values and beliefs as men, I'm struggling to interpret that sentence in a charitable manner. Could you clarify what you meant? Are you saying that, when it comes to development, male values/interests (whatever that could possibly mean anyway) are the only ones worth having and that women need to conform to them?

Ellipsis753 13y ago
No. He's just making fun of the idea that men and women should be identical and should be 50/50 on everything. In actuality women and men do different things and have different interests. It's kind of crazy to pass up a better person just to get more women/men hired or to do something. If you have to hire 10 people for a coding position and you have 100 applicants (10 male and 90 female) but the 10 male applicants are better (more qualified and better for the job) than the 90 female applicants then you should hire the 10 male applicant. There is no reason you should try to force it to 5 males and 5 females or even 9 females and 1 male. Just hire whoever is best regardless of gender.
- theorique 13y ago
  Unfortunately, this kind of attitude (with which I wholly agree) is being criticized more and more. Through contempt for the concept of meritocracy (even as an asymptotic ideal), and growth in identity politics, more and more people seem to view diversity and social engineering goals as more important than getting the best team in place for the job. Maybe that's fine for a sclerotic bureaucracy, but for a startup in which everyone's effort counts, a single marginal hire is like a cancer - you simply can't afford it. Hiring needs to be focused on getting the best people for the job - diversity will arise as a consequence.
  - abhorrence 13y ago
    It's worth considering bias though. Do the people in charge of hiring fairly assess the skills of an applicant? I suspect that orchestras in the 1970's would have claimed to be meritocratic in their audition practices, but the success rate of female auditionees quintupled with the introduction of blind auditions. [1] In the case where you've hired 10 males out of a pool of 90 females and 10 males, it's not unreasonable to suspect that maybe something is wrong with your hiring practices, is it? It definitely could be that everything truly was based on merit, however there could be biases in the hiring process of which you're not aware. Could this be what most of the people that you see as having "contempt for the concept of meritocracy" are actually thinking? That said, there are good and bad ways of dealing with these sorts of issues. I generally dislike affirmative action like solutions, much for the same reason that Justice Clarence Thomas dislikes affirmative action. Solutions like blind auditions, that attempt to remove the biases, rather than negate them, are far better. [1] - http://www.nber.org/papers/w5903 http://www.nber.org/papers/w5903