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He is a volunteer and not an employee. And I wouldn't consider this an abusive internship situation. What he's officially doing is getting some real-world exp

by orware 13y ago

He is a volunteer and not an employee. And I wouldn't consider this an abusive internship situation. What he's officially doing is getting some real-world experience which he actually needs and we've gone through the volunteer process here at my day job (a community college) to provide him with that volunteer coverage and he's coming 3 days a week and helping me out with little projects that I've been backlogged on and he's been having a good time doing that. That is a volunteer situation and not an abusive internship at all. However, we cannot hire him here at my day job (since we're a public institution, there's a lengthy hiring process even if we had a position available, which has it's own length budgeting and creation process). If he were taking 6 units or more, we could potentially hire him as a student worker, but since he finished his degree he's not looking to take any additional classes right now. And having unpaid volunteers is not unprecedented. The money I paid to him as a thank you before was out of my own pocket for the volunteer work he had been doing for us here at the college since he wasn't getting paid for that work and I appreciate the assistance he's able to provide. As I mentioned previously though, I'd like to do more for him so I'm exploring this option of possibly doing some sort of hiring if it's possible in my software business, and have him help out with those separate projects (outside of his normal volunteer role), since I cannot do anything more for him except have him volunteer at the moment. Primarily because I do want him to be paid and start building a career for himself. However, I feel like you may think I'm taking advantage of a situation in a negative way and that's not how it is at all, in fact quite the opposite.

dangrossman 13y ago
You don't get to decide that, which is why gamblor956 said you need to talk to a lawyer. That lawyer will tell you if the relationship you've set up is an employment relationship as defined by labor law and the tax code, regardless of what you're currently calling it, and regardless of the student's intentions. Believe it or not, even if someone volunteers to do work for free, you may not be permitted to accept their labor for free. Minimum wage is legally mandated minimum compensation for work, and unpaid internships that involve doing any work for the benefit of the employer are illegal even if the student is willing to be unpaid. The scope of work someone can do at an internship (or "volunteer opportunity") without being paid is very, very narrow. Based on what you've said so far, having him work on projects you are backlogged on and on your side business, this is not a legal unpaid volunteer situation. The relationship you two have has to meet _all_ of the following requirements to be exempt from paying him minimum wage, as established by the Supreme Court in Walling v. Portland Terminal Co. They continue to be the basic test used by the Department of Labor in deciding when unpaid student intern programs are legal or not: 1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment. 2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern. 3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff. 4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded. 5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship. 6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.
- orware 13y ago
  Thanks again Dan! First off let me clarify for the volunteer work he is doing at the college he is not working on any of my software business stuff during that time (he is strictly working on the college stuff). The software business stuff I gave him separately as something he can try working on at home (kind of like a take home assignment). Fixing a minor bug in the software, adding an additional parameter, etc. And so far this has only been one time, but I did like his work and so I started this thread to see what options I should look into if I wanted to have him work with me officially. Let me go over Department of Labor test you mentioned and see how that's going (this is strictly for his volunteer work at the college, not the one software business thing I had him do): 1. This one I wouldn't be 100% on, but I am training him throughout the process, most of the things I've given to him are akin to what could be given as a class project. They haven't been any of the major projects that I actually have to worry about, they've been little projects I would have had to say no to (examples include a website for a local veterans group, adding in some email sending functionality to an existing program, creating a web application to make a different automated process I already had in place easier to use). 2. I would definitely say this experience is going to be beneficial for him (right now his issue is not lack of capability, it's lack of experience and a willingness from an employer to "take a chance" on him). 3. The intern isn't displacing any regular employees (I've always been a department of one managing the college's online services, and while I'm not hovering over his shoulder every minute, which wouldn't be good for him, he does work closely with me under my supervision). 4. This one is a little weird, because of the "no immediate advantage" part and I'm not sure how to interpret that. I do know that on the days that he is on campus, since I have to spend a number of hours meeting with him and working with him as he goes about his work that my operations are impeded during that time so I'm not able to do my regular work as quickly. 5. The intern is definitely not entitled to a job at the conclusion of his volunteer work (and he knows that, but our goal is to build up his skills enough so that an employer will have an easier time hiring him). 6. The employer and the intern do understand that he is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship. So aside from #1 and #4 which are a little more open to interpretation, I would say if we're just looking at the work he's doing for the college we're meeting the 1-6 criteria fairly well. Can I say it's 100%, no and that's not my job to worry about at work. However, this whole discussion was sparked because I've had him try fixing a bug and adding some features to a small, free product I have (probably about an hour or two worth of work) at home and he did a pretty good job so I wanted to ask and see what options I have within my own means to pay him something and he could also help out the business. I'm not trying to skirt around the legalities of the situation, if we're not in compliance with the law, then maybe we shouldn't have any volunteers (and historically we've only two prior to this that I know of). But I'm in no way trying to keep him as a volunteer forever. Our goal is to get him (and any of the students that attend the college) a job :-). You seem to have the most experience in this area though, so from your comments I would say I should eliminate having him work on any what would be considered the "software business" on his own time unless some sort of formal relationship was in place in order to have everything completely legal and maybe even stop his ability to volunteer if, after you've clarified the interpretation of #1 and #4, it seems like we're not meeting the Department of Labor test.

by orware 13y ago

dangrossman 13y ago

You don't get to decide that, which is why gamblor956 said you need to talk to a lawyer. That lawyer will tell you if the relationship you've set up is an employment relationship as defined by labor law and the tax code, regardless of what you're currently calling it, and regardless of the student's intentions. Believe it or not, even if someone volunteers to do work for free, you may not be permitted to accept their labor for free. Minimum wage is legally mandated minimum compensation for work, and unpaid internships that involve doing any work for the benefit of the employer are illegal even if the student is willing to be unpaid. The scope of work someone can do at an internship (or "volunteer opportunity") without being paid is very, very narrow. Based on what you've said so far, having him work on projects you are backlogged on and on your side business, this is not a legal unpaid volunteer situation. The relationship you two have has to meet _all_ of the following requirements to be exempt from paying him minimum wage, as established by the Supreme Court in Walling v. Portland Terminal Co. They continue to be the basic test used by the Department of Labor in deciding when unpaid student intern programs are legal or not: 1. The internship, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to training which would be given in an educational environment. 2. The internship experience is for the benefit of the intern. 3. The intern does not displace regular employees, but works under close supervision of existing staff. 4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded. 5. The intern is not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the internship. 6. The employer and the intern understand that the intern is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship.

orware 13y ago
Thanks again Dan! First off let me clarify for the volunteer work he is doing at the college he is not working on any of my software business stuff during that time (he is strictly working on the college stuff). The software business stuff I gave him separately as something he can try working on at home (kind of like a take home assignment). Fixing a minor bug in the software, adding an additional parameter, etc. And so far this has only been one time, but I did like his work and so I started this thread to see what options I should look into if I wanted to have him work with me officially. Let me go over Department of Labor test you mentioned and see how that's going (this is strictly for his volunteer work at the college, not the one software business thing I had him do): 1. This one I wouldn't be 100% on, but I am training him throughout the process, most of the things I've given to him are akin to what could be given as a class project. They haven't been any of the major projects that I actually have to worry about, they've been little projects I would have had to say no to (examples include a website for a local veterans group, adding in some email sending functionality to an existing program, creating a web application to make a different automated process I already had in place easier to use). 2. I would definitely say this experience is going to be beneficial for him (right now his issue is not lack of capability, it's lack of experience and a willingness from an employer to "take a chance" on him). 3. The intern isn't displacing any regular employees (I've always been a department of one managing the college's online services, and while I'm not hovering over his shoulder every minute, which wouldn't be good for him, he does work closely with me under my supervision). 4. This one is a little weird, because of the "no immediate advantage" part and I'm not sure how to interpret that. I do know that on the days that he is on campus, since I have to spend a number of hours meeting with him and working with him as he goes about his work that my operations are impeded during that time so I'm not able to do my regular work as quickly. 5. The intern is definitely not entitled to a job at the conclusion of his volunteer work (and he knows that, but our goal is to build up his skills enough so that an employer will have an easier time hiring him). 6. The employer and the intern do understand that he is not entitled to wages for the time spent in the internship. So aside from #1 and #4 which are a little more open to interpretation, I would say if we're just looking at the work he's doing for the college we're meeting the 1-6 criteria fairly well. Can I say it's 100%, no and that's not my job to worry about at work. However, this whole discussion was sparked because I've had him try fixing a bug and adding some features to a small, free product I have (probably about an hour or two worth of work) at home and he did a pretty good job so I wanted to ask and see what options I have within my own means to pay him something and he could also help out the business. I'm not trying to skirt around the legalities of the situation, if we're not in compliance with the law, then maybe we shouldn't have any volunteers (and historically we've only two prior to this that I know of). But I'm in no way trying to keep him as a volunteer forever. Our goal is to get him (and any of the students that attend the college) a job :-). You seem to have the most experience in this area though, so from your comments I would say I should eliminate having him work on any what would be considered the "software business" on his own time unless some sort of formal relationship was in place in order to have everything completely legal and maybe even stop his ability to volunteer if, after you've clarified the interpretation of #1 and #4, it seems like we're not meeting the Department of Labor test.